Life on the Moon: What’s Next for the Artemis Program

When humans next go to the Moon, we’ll be going to stay. We’ll be building bases, navigating unexplored areas, and acclimating to daily life off planet. When all that happens, it’ll be thanks to the efforts of folks like KBR’s own Sean Anderson, KBR Flight Dynamics Exploration Extravehicular Activity Navigation System Lead and International Space Station Flight Controller. In this final part of our NASA Artemis Program series, Sean talks about his extensive space experience, his work helping develop the navigation systems astronauts will use during lunar exploration, preparations for dealing with potential hazards or malfunctions during missions, and what discoveries might be on the horizon.

Transcript

IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

S6 E6

Life on the Moon: What’s Next for the Artemis Program

John Arnold

Hello! I'm John, and this is “In Orbit.”

Greetings, people of Earth, and welcome to the podcast. Whether you've stumbled on us for the first time or are checking back in, we're just grateful you're listening and staying in our orbit.

If you have been following the podcast recently, you know that KBR was involved in the Artemis II mission that sent human beings around the moon and farther into space than ever before. KBR's people touched nearly every part of that mission, including imaging that was done in flight, mission control, communications, and a whole lot more.

Well, today we're going to go one small step further and talk about what happens next when there are spacesuit-booted feet on the moon in an area never before explored by human beings. We'll also talk about the first steps humankind will be taking to set up a permanent base there, and we'll talk about what happens if something goes wrong. And I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast today to talk about it, Sean Anderson. Sean is an International Space Station flight controller and has, this is a mouthful, Sean, but I'm going to try to get it without messing it up, the Flight Dynamics Exploration Extravehicular Activity Navigation System Lead at KBR. And he's going to tell us all about what that means and a whole lot more. Welcome to the podcast, Sean. 

Sean Anderson

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here today. 

John Arnold 

I know it's been a while, but I'm glad that we finally got everything put together. that the schedules align, the stars align, so to speak. But before we dive into Artemis missions and your work as a flight controller, I wonder if you'd just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you landed in a career in space. 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, so I'm Sean Henderson. I was born and raised in the Midwest, and then I graduated from Purdue University in the spring of 2021 with a degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering. And since then, I have been supporting KBR, at NASA Johnson Space Center ever since. So I came in to support the International Space Station as a flight controller. I spent a couple of years training and getting certified for that. And then a couple of years ago, I stepped into the Artemis side of things where I have been leading, like you said, the mouthful title of the Flight Dynamics Exploration EVA Navigation System Lead, trying to get a navigation system for the suits for the future lunar surface missions. 

John Arnold

That is awesome. So your work is around suit development. 

Sean Anderson 

The tool that will integrate with the suit. So we basically want a navigation system that can either integrate with the suit or could be just held by the suited crew member to provide navigation data during the Artemis mission. 

John Arnold 

Gotcha. Oh, that's fascinating. Well, tell us a little bit more about your roles with KBR and NASA about 

flight controller and as Flight Dynamic Exploration EVA system lead. 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, so my primary task is as a flight controller for the International Space Station. So I support the guidance, navigation, and control, or GNNC system of the International Space Station as the ADCO flight controller. So another NASA acronym, it stands for the Attitude, Determination, and Control Officer. So we maintain the station's orientation the altitude with reboost burns, we plan and execute various dynamic events and troubleshoot anomalies. When I'm not doing work on the ISS side, I am spending time developing the navigation system for the EVA suits that'll be a part of the Artemis missions. So this is a lot more developmental work, not as much operational work right now, but it's a lot of requirements development and review. I'm coordinating with various partners and stakeholders from engineering to commercial partners to make sure that all of our needs are met and we're operating within the constraints of the suit and of the Artemis mission. 

John Arnold 

That is so cool. That's a big job, developing the navigation system for the space suits. 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, really what I provide with my role is the operational expertise. So as a member of the Flight Operations Directorate, we have a lot of experience actually flying the missions. We understand the crew's needs and what works for them. So that's kind of what I'm bringing to the table with the system development. So I'm working closely with the engineers and the commercial partners who will actually develop the hardware, but providing that operational insight so they can make a better product. 

John Arnold 

Super important for the astronauts that are going to be on the lunar surface. They'll have you to thank for all that hard work. So we're talking about NASA's Artemis program for a few episodes on the podcast, and this episode is part of that series. This is humankind's first journey back to the surface of the moon in nearly 60 years. You need to look at the news for 10 seconds to see that there's a lot happening here on our home world. Why is getting back to the moon a big deal? Why is this trip different than previous trips? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, so I would say there's really two major reasons why getting back to the moon is such a big deal and so important, even with everything else going on. So I believe it has the potential to bring us together as an international community, as the world, as well as being the first step to exploring the rest of our solar system and potentially beyond, which those are big claims, but I do have some rationale behind it. So the Apollo program took place in a very turbulent time in American history and world history as well. So today is no different. It's the same. We're seeing the same sort of things all around the world that can make people more anxious about what's going on. Landing on the moon brought the country together back in 1969, and I think the Artemis program has the ability to bring the world together because of how many international partners are involved with this effort. I think last time I checked, close to 70 countries have signed the Artemis Accords and are coming along on this journey, and that number seems to be growing every year. So I really think it has the potential to bring people together for a good cause and kind of unify everyone.

Another big reason is that this is the first step to pretty much the rest of human spaceflight. So it's a really important stepping stone in this journey. So when we go back to the moon, we're not just going back to visit. like we did in the Apollo era, kind of the boots and the flagpoles on the moon. We're going back and we're going to stay. So at the lunar South Pole, we're going to build out a moon base that's going to enable us to maintain a permanent presence on the moon. And everything that we learn on the moon is going to prepare us for future journeys to Mars. And potentially from there, it's really the star is the limit, right? We can go to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and potentially even beyond the solar system. But first, we need to get back to the moon so we can develop these systems and techniques. 

John Arnold 

Sean, I had never heard this, and it's interesting to have not heard this. Maybe I'm not paying attention well enough, but 70 countries are involved in the Artemis missions. Would you tell us about what kind of support and cooperation are those other countries bringing to the table? How are they involved? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, so it's essentially a binding agreement, right, of how we want to operate on the moon, so kind of making sure we all play by the same rules, we're all in it together, you know. But then there's also international partners who are providing hardware, who are providing astronauts. So we have astronauts coming from the Japanese Space Agency, JAXA. We have the European Space Agency, or ESA. all sorts of providers that are providing expertise and crew members. They provide hardware like parts of the SLS and Orion components come from international communities. So we're also going to be seeing a lot of future projects coming from these international partners. So we have pressurized rover coming from JAXA, which is a really cool, basically just a house on wheels going on the moon here in the next decade or so. There's a lot of exciting partnerships happening with the international community. 

John Arnold 

That is very exciting. That's really awesome. I had no idea that many members of the international community were involved in cooperation on the Artemis mission. So that is outstanding. Listeners may know, having listened to this podcast, KBR has been involved with NASA dating back to the Apollo missions. So could you tell us more about the strategic value that KBR brings? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, like you said, you know, KBR has already been working with NASA for a long time, providing exceptional flight controller support and mission control. You know, we've been safely operating the ISS for decades now. And those same flight controllers are now leading the Artemis mission planning efforts. So all of those lessons learned, the skills that we gained from these previous programs are now being directly applied to the Artemis mission, and similarly, we're partnering with a lot of commercial partners. And we're able to provide expertise and lessons learned to these commercial partners to make sure that they can also come along on the journey and provide the next generation of space stations, space suits, lunar rovers, and landers, and so much more. So that expertise is getting passed down from flight controller to flight controller, from program to program, and from company to company. 

John Arnold 

Awesome. Thanks for that. So as you said, this is going back to stay. This is not only planting a flag in the ground, but building a physical presence on the surface of the moon. What are some of the challenges that astronauts, be them from NASA or other space agencies, will be facing when we are navigating the lunar South Pole? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, navigating at the lunar South Pole is nothing like navigating on Earth or even the rest of the moon, like the equator where the Apollo programs landed. It has a lot of challenges that come with it just due to the environment. So the very low angle of the sun, it basically never really leaves too far above the horizon. It makes for very long shadows, very stark lighting conditions. You have really stark shadows and bright light that contrast each other a lot, which really impacts your ability to assess depth. You have a lack of distinct features to go off of. And you're doing all of this without a GPS, at least currently, right, like how we have on Earth. So you're doing all of this with not a lot of help.

So having experienced this in a virtual reality environment, I can definitely assure you it is very easy to get turned around up there. Everything is gray or there's just big black spots where you don't know what's there. It could be a crater, it could be a rock, you just don't know. So it is very easy to get lost up there if you don't have the right tools and techniques. And unlike on Earth, if you get lost here, you can take your time, you can get your bearings, so to speak. You have time to think about it and figure out where you are. But on the moon, it's not just navigating. You also have to think about your consumables. How much power do you have left in your suit? How much oxygen do you have to breathe? So you have a clock ticking that is also putting on pressure to make sure that you're navigating efficiently. And that's just for the nominal EVA, right? That's not even factoring in anything that can go wrong. So it can become very difficult very quickly. 

John Arnold 

That's amazing. It's fascinating to hear about you being involved in using the 3D virtual environment to kind of see what it's going to be like. How is KBR helping to overcome those kinds of challenges? What are some of the tools and navigation techniques that we will be deploying that you're helping develop? 

Sean Anderson 

So we really have two phases of tools. We have what we call the paper tools. They're not actually made of paper, but just kind of the more rudimentary tools that have a lot of history with the Apollo program. So this includes things like a map book and a sun compass, and that's being developed by our orienteering tools team here with KBR and NASA. And so these are going to be used in the initial missions when we are a little bit closer to the lander. We're testing out all these systems. They'll still have some basic navigation tools to figure out where they need to go. And then the second phase of that is developing an electronic navigation system, which is my part of the project that can ... it could use sensors, it could use overhead signals from lunar satellites or both to essentially just provide the navigation data to the crew so that they don't have to do all that computation themselves. In addition to the tools, though, we're also making sure that we're training the astronauts.

So we're developing training programs, classes, and workshops and simulations, both in virtual reality as well as in the real world, going to various sites that are analogous to the lunar surface as best we can. to practice classic orienteering techniques. So a lot of the hikers and outdoor enthusiasts listening might be familiar with identifying attack points and backstops to help navigate on the lunar surface. But the end goal is to have a reliable Earth-independent system that is just going to tell the astronaut where they are, where they're heading, you know, what path to take. That way they don't really have to think about it so they can just focus on all the science and exploration that they're going to be doing on the missions. 

John Arnold 

It's amazing to me to think about these folks being on the surface of the moon at the South Pole and being people that have set foot in a place that no one's ever set before. And the rudimentary nature of cartography and really plotting out what the surface looks like and what the environment is like is really, really exciting and inspiring. It's very cool to think that you're going to be a big part of that. I was in the gym working out the other day and “Apollo 13” was on and I'm thinking about this interview and thinking about the other folks that I've talked about for the Artemis program and KBR.

You've already mentioned, kind of getting turned around. What are some scenarios that these astronauts might face while on EVA? And you've mentioned some of the preparation that we're already doing, but would you talk more about that? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, exactly. You know, we're constantly thinking about... all the what ifs when we're planning for a mission. So it's our job to make sure that we have thought through everything so that we can develop the tools, the procedures, everything to make sure that we're ready. And there's a lot of different contingencies that we're currently tracking, especially for navigation. So we're thinking about things like rover failures when they eventually have lunar rovers on the surface. If the rover fails, you have to get back to the lander somehow. And that could be kilometers away from the lander. There's, of course, suit failures. A crew member could become incapacitated and have to be brought back to the lander. Dust is everywhere, and it can ruin tools or hardware. We don't fully understand all of the effects of that.

And then of course, just getting lost up there. And the first step into mitigating these hazards is just to simply identify. And we need to make sure at least know what could happen. So constantly thinking about those what ifs. And then once we've identified those issues, now we can start thinking about, “How do we design our hardware and our software to help mitigate some of those. How do we develop our flight rules and our procedures and training programs to try to mitigate those?” And so whatever we can't fix with hardware and software, that's where crew and flight controller training comes in to make sure that we're prepared. So with KBR, we have extensive training programs for both the crew and for the flight controllers on the ground who are going to be operating these Artemis missions. And so if we see something that we've never seen before, which is usually the kind of failures we see on orbit, it's usually the stuff that just we never thought of, And then we have plenty of experience then to actually tackle those problems in real time, like you've seen in the “Apollo 13” movie, right? It's just work the problem one step at a time and get the crew home safely.

John Arnold 

You mentioned the rover, and it's fascinating to think about, you know, the house on wheels. Let's break down that scenario that you were just talking about. What's something that could go wrong with the rover, and how would you guys work through that problem?

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, so with these new rovers, the crew's going to be able to explore much farther than they ever have before. We're talking several kilometers away from the lander or from their habitat, which is great for exploration and science. It's going to allow us to see more of the lunar surface than we ever have before. It's going to be really... great preparation for future Mars missions, but it does pose a real risk to crew safety that we have to plan for. So if the rover is very far away from the lander or from the moon base, the crew, of course, is going to have to walk back. So unlike your car breaking down on Earth where you can just call a tow truck or an Uber, I mean, the crew has to get back on their own. And they may not always have communication with the ground just depending on the nature of the failure and what's happened. So we talked about earlier, time is of the essence just because it's not just time until you lose the light or things like that. You have only so much air and power in the suit that you have to think about. So navigating quickly is really important because from my standpoint, I just want to get out of the way of the crew. I don't want them to be worried about navigating. I just want them to see here's where I am, here's the lander, and here's the path that I need to take. So if we can develop a navigation system that provides the crew that data, that's going to enable them to have the best chance to make sure that they can make it back in that contingency. 

John Arnold 

It is amazing to me to think about these crews in the not too distant future, say a rover does break down, being the first people ever to perform what is essentially auto maintenance, like on the surface of the moon, or the people that are actually putting the stakes in the ground to set up the infrastructure for a moon base is just mind-blowing. So my hat's off to you and all your team. You've mentioned the 3D environments before. We know that right now technology is constantly advancing. What are some other methods or technologies that might change the evolution of the Artemis program here in the near future? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, like you mentioned, virtual reality and augmented reality are going to be huge parts of it, right? VR, especially for the lunar environment, is so valuable for training. I strongly encourage anyone that's ever involved with the decision-making of this process to just get them in the VR lab so they can at least experience what it's like before you start making decisions that can impact the crew. And then besides that, artificial intelligence is also going to play a role, right? There's constantly projects being developed to think about, “How can we utilize this tool to provide value to the crew and to the flight controllers?” And then there's probably even a lot more that we're not thinking of, but that's where the idea of just making sure that our architecture for the Artemis program is evolvable. We don't want to just deliver a product on the first mission and say, well, this is what we have. We want to take what we learned from the initial missions. We want to update the hardware to implement those lessons learned so that each mission becomes better and better designed, more capable. We start adding more and more components one block at a time until we can develop a permanent presence there, similar to what we've already been doing in low Earth orbit. 

John Arnold 

As someone who has worked in the virtual environment with those 3D recreations of South Pole conditions, you already talked about some of the uncertainty, not knowing what a black area could be because of visibility issues or contrast. I know it's not exactly apples to apples, but what you're experiencing in the virtual environment, thinking about the astronauts experiencing in a real environment, what kind of emotion or feeling does that give you as you're looking at it? Do you equate that to, oh my gosh, these people are going to be seeing this on the surface of the moon? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, it's definitely, it's a very interesting feeling when you're in the virtual reality environment. It does feel very real. Obviously, you're just wearing a headset, but I think usually my first thought when I get into those environments is just, this is a very scary environment. Okay, yeah. You aren't fully prepared for it because you're just seeing, sometimes you could just be looking in the distance and it's just black. And imagine just being put into a room that was pitch black and you're just told to start walking somewhere. You might be walking along a path and to your right you could see craters and stuff and to your left you just see a black drop off because that's just where the shadow is and you don't know if that's a cliff, if it's a crater, if it's a hill, you just don't know because you can't see it. 

John Arnold 

Yeah, I guess that answered my question perfectly. Just wondering the sensation of the unknown and drawing the analog between that, what you're seeing in a lab and what the astronauts will see. How does it feel to you personally in helping these engineers develop the technology, but then also knowing that your work on the navigation systems is going to be integral to sustaining life on the lunar surface? You know, how is your day-to-day feeling working on this? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, it's super exciting being a part of this new Artemis generation, right? I've always loved space as a kid. I did the space camp and all those things. And that was back when it was kind of in a moment of space history where it was a little bit more bleak, right? The space travel was ending. We didn't really have any future plans of what was going to happen, so there was a lot of unknowns. But now it seems like we actually have a good direction of where we're heading, which makes it very exciting, because we're just at the beginning of this new adventure. And I'm excited to see the day where we finally have humans living and working on the moon, just like we've been doing in low Earth orbit. Everything that we're doing today is just preparing us for these future missions to Mars and beyond, which is super exciting. 

John Arnold 

This is a question that I don't think you had time to prepare for, but maybe you can just think about it for a second if you need to. But what's something that you hope comes out of these initial lunar surface missions? What's something that you're looking forward to these astronauts discovering and then being a part of that in the support team? 

Sean Anderson 

I think is going to be when we finally have human eyes seeing ice or any signs of, life beyond Earth, right? If we come across these collections of ice, which is theorized to be at the lunar South Pole, right? But we won't really know until we're there. Just because I think that is going to be the moment that really makes a lot of us think truly that maybe we actually aren't alone, you know, in the universe and everything. Because if we can find ice there, then who knows what else is beyond? Because that's just at our moon, which is just right next door. 

John Arnold 

Right. That is so cool. Well, Sean, I really appreciate your time today. Are there any final thoughts that you'd like to leave with our audience before I let you go? 

Sean Anderson 

Yeah, I just hope this conversation has at least just reiterated that we live in very exciting times for the human space industry. You know, we have commercial space stations in development. The Artemis missions are well underway, and we have Moonbase now, which is starting to get up and running. And that's just in this decade alone. So, I mean, you know, in the next 50 years, who knows what the future is going to look like. And I strongly encourage everyone to follow along with the journey, through NASA socials, sharing with your friends and family. The more excitement around these programs is better, right? Because that just shows. the leaders in government write that the people want this, that this is exciting, and that just only helps the effort more. But I really want to thank you for having me today. NASA definitely would not be here where we are today without the help of KBR and our international partners and commercial partners all involved in the Artemis program. So very glad to be a part of this today. 

John Arnold 

It's been my absolute pleasure to speak with you. Thanks so much, Sean. 

Sean Anderson 

Thank you. 

CONCLUSION

John Arnold 

People on the moon. Potential discoveries. International cooperation. It's pretty exhilarating stuff.

We want to thank Sean Anderson and wish him well and all the rest of KBR's people who will be actively involved over the next few years in making the Artemis Moon missions possible. I also want to thank my colleague Carri Karuhn again for her help in putting this episode together and the whole Artemis series. If you've got an idea for a future episode, please don't hesitate to let us know by emailing at inorbit@kbr.com.

And finally, as always, thanks to you, our listeners. There's a lot going on in the world today. Plenty to worry or concern us. Hopefully you've heard something so far this season that excites or inspires you. We're just glad you're checking in and keeping us in your orbit.

Until next time, be kind to each other and take care.