Calling the Moonshot: KBR and Artemis II

If you haven’t heard, NASA’s Artemis II mission was a big success. That was due in no small part to the expertise of KBR’s people. In this episode, you’ll hear from two KBR team members and NASA flight controllers, Tess Caswell and Jaclyn Kagey. Listen as they talk about what drew them to careers in space, their hopes for lunar exploration, their vital roles in Artemis II and future Artemis program missions, and much more!

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IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

S6 E5

Calling the Moonshot: KBR and Artemis II

John Arnold 

Hello, I'm John, and this is “In Orbit.”

Welcome to the podcast, one and all. Wherever you are, first-time or long-time listener, we're just happy you're with us and staying in our orbit.

That name, “In Orbit,” has always been about connection. Connection to you, our listeners, connection to topics that interest and inform, but that also have practical implications for all of us. But sometimes, like our recent conversation with KBR imaging specialist Paul Reichert from episode 3 of this current season, we get to actually talk about orbit, as in space, rockets, and astronauts. And today, we're going to do that again. Specifically, we're going to discuss the recent Artemis II mission that took astronauts back to the moon and further into space than humankind has ever gone before, as well as KBR's role in that mission and the roles of our experts who will eventually put boots back on the moon.

TRANSITION

John Arnold

And I am absolutely thrilled to welcome to the podcast today Tess Caswell and Jaclyn Kagey. Tess and Jaclyn are NASA flight controllers and members of KBR's Integrated Mission Operations Contract, or IMOC 3. Welcome to the podcast, both of you.

Tess Caswell 

Thanks for having us. 

Jaclyn Kagey

Thank you. 

John Arnold

It is a pleasure. As I was telling your colleague there at NASA and also KBR IMOC contract member Paul Reichert, anytime we get to do an actual space episode on the In Orbit podcast is a treat. So I'm very excited to talk with you all today. But before we get going, talking about NASA and Artemis and the ISS, I would love for our audience members to get a chance to get to know you a little bit. So how on Earth, pun intended, did you get to where you are today?

Tess Caswell 

Yeah, it's a great question. I think that's all first and foremost on a lot of, especially young people's mind when they're thinking about, going into a career like this is how do I get to where these people are? I started out growing up in a log cabin in the woods of Alaska. I was born and raised in a small town up there, and we were kind of on the frontier, so I think I always had kind of an exploration-oriented mindset. And I knew from a very young age that I wanted to work at NASA, so I did engineering as my undergraduate degree at the University of Alaska Fairbanks. I worked as an ISS flight controller for a few years, went back to school to study geology. and I did my PhD in planetary sciences at Brown University. But I knew even as I was doing that, I love human spaceflight. So pretty much as soon as I could, I came back to human spaceflight. I worked at Blue Origin for a couple of years as part of their New Shepard program, helping to launch tourists on their rocket. And then the opportunity to come back and be part of the Exploration EVA group here at Johnson Space Center came up, and I jumped at it. So I came back to JSC pretty much as fast as I could, and it's been an adventure ever since.

John Arnold

That's awesome, Tess. Thanks so much for sharing that. Jaclyn, what about you? 

Jaclyn Kagey

Yeah, so I'm actually from a smaller town in Ohio. And I grew up, I was the youngest of three sisters. I was really interested in math and science all through my childhood, specifically aviation and space. You know, I'm the geek of Top Gun and all of the space missions. I always followed along. And then I went from my hometown in Barberton, Ohio to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Florida. There I was a major in aerospace engineering and minored in math and computer science. And Embry-Riddle is really what helped to bring me to NASA and at the time United Space Alliance who had the contract prior to KBR. that paved my path here. And going to school in Daytona Beach, we were just down the road from Kennedy Space Center, so we were able to attend a lot of the space shuttle launches that were happening at the time that I was there. So it just helped keep me motivated to getting here. 

John Arnold

Wow. Both of your paths sound really, really interesting. I always love to hear about where our guests have come from and the paths that they've beaten to arrive at this point in time. What was the path, and I'll let you guys decide on who wants to answer first, but what was the path that brought you specifically to the Mission control. 

Jaclyn Kagey

I'll take that one first. So as I mentioned, Embry-Riddle had a strong connection here at Johnson Space Center. So I interviewed with several positions within the Flight Operations Directorate. I initially chose to begin in the booster group, so I specialized in the space shuttle main engines. After about a year or so, I found an opportunity to transition to the extravehicular activity or EVA group. And I made that transition and I have made that my career specializing in spacewalks ever since. 

John Arnold

How about you, Tess? 

Tess Caswell

I honestly kind of went straight into mission control like Jackie. My first job out of college was as an environmental and thermal operating systems flight controller for the International Space Station. So right away I was on a path to sit in the front room of mission control and pretty quickly realized that is the best seat in the house on Earth. If you're going to be part of human spaceflight, there's nowhere else like being in mission control. So I was hooked, and pretty much ever since then, I've been in some form of mission control, and I love it. 

John Arnold

That's fantastic. So unless people have been under a rock for the past few weeks, they would have seen that the Artemis II launch and return has happened. The longest voyage to the moon and back for, what, 50 years, the first time that people have been back to the moon, not on the moon, but around the moon. Would love to hear about what your roles on mission control are for the Artemis program and how they're similar and how they differ. 

Tess Caswell

So I was really fortunate to be part of Artemis II. I am currently the Artemis lead CAPCOM, which means that I am the group lead for all CAPCOMs. And if you don't know what a CAPCOM is, it's the capsule communicator or the person who is in mission control speaking to the astronauts on board the spacecraft. And so my role overall is to ensure that anyone who's sitting in that chair is trained and certified and ready to support the mission. And I was also fortunate to be able to work a few shifts during the Artemis II mission itself. So I got to speak to the crew while they were on their way at the moon and then on their way home. And it was honestly one of the highlights of my life so far. It was so cool. But that's my current role in mission control is talking to the crew. 

Jaclyn Kagey

Yeah, so I am the lead Artemis EVA officer for our return to the moon. So that means the first spacewalks that we do when we get back to the lunar surface, I will be the person sitting in mission control for those spacewalks. Therefore, I'm at the forefront of like planning and executing the EVAs. My team will lead the real-time operations from mission control. And this is a role I've successfully performed for many space station EVAs. And some of our responsibilities encompass creating the mission procedures and real-time training products for EVA, and then providing that 24/7 console support that you saw during Artemis II. Some of the core principles of EVA remain consistent between ISS and lunar EVAs, but the details are significantly different. So we have to adapt to new spacesuits, new vehicles, and new unique mission tasks. And for decades we've been training in the micro-G environment to get the crews to now readapt to the 16G of the lunar environment, these new tools and processes. And we're also moving from a construction and maintenance mentality on our ISS EVAs to a science-based exploration on the lunar EVAs. So it's a similar role that we've done for years, but a new facet of that.

John Arnold

Oh, that's so Fascinating, so cool. I'm loving hearing about everything that you're doing. So when you're not on mission control duties, what are your days? Like Jaclyn, you were just talking about some of the research and the forethought that is going into mission planning and things. What other activities do you all participate in? 

Jaclyn Kagey

So I think this is the favorite part about my job. It has so many different parts. Some days, you're dedicated to your desk work and your meetings just like everybody else, but other days we have dynamic testing and training environments from scuba diving into the neutral buoyancy laboratory to using the gravity offload system in the SVMF or space vehicle mock-up facility. We engage in classroom instruction, simulator exercises, and operations at remote field sites. So learning how to do a lunar spacewalk can't be completed in any one facility. Each of these events are just like building up into help us recreate the lunar environment that the crew members will experience. So while training, both as an instructor and a student, that's been constant in my career, preparing for Artemis has brought a new area of focus, and that's geology. I know Tess spoke about going back to school of it, but pure engineering and operations background, and I had no geology classes before these past couple years. And it's been like acquiring a new language. It's essential for seamlessly integrating with the science officer and understanding the science objectives. And then we spend that time training both here locally in Houston and as far away as Iceland and remote Canada. Yeah, these environments are the most lunar-like that they're showing us that they can, so we can know what to expect when the crew gets back to the surface of the moon. 

John Arnold

Fascinated by geology, so when both of you have said that, I'm like, All right, sounds interesting. I'm in. Tess, how about yourself? What other kinds of activities, in addition to the CAPCOM responsibilities, do you have with Mission control?

Tess Caswell

Yeah, I liked that Jackie said that learning geology is like learning a new language. I can say from firsthand experience that when I went back to school, the engineer in me was like, why aren't rocks just called chemical names? But they have all these random names that are based off of where they were discovered or where the mineral was first sighted and things like that. And it is a new language. And I think that being at CAPCOM is also like that every day because we are not the experts in a specific aspect of an Artemis mission. Like Jackie lives and breathes spacewalks and lunar surface exploration. And the CAPCOM is a messenger, but we also are the representatives of the crew in mission control because obviously they're not there to speak for themselves. So our day-to-day is a combination of classroom and simulation type exercises where we're both Engaging with the instructors to learn the language of the spacecraft, whether that's power systems or hydraulic systems or computer systems, right? All the different things that keep a spacecraft flying, we have to be able to converse with the astronauts easily on any of those things. and also getting to know the crew before they fly. So we try to participate in the same activities that the crew are actually in so that when they are about to disappear behind the moon and lose contact with Earth, the last voice that they hear is someone who they know and trust, and they know that the people on the ground are always thinking about them and how to do what they need to fly and fly home safely. So it's an amazing and varied job We don't get to go to quite as many awesome simulation environments as Jackie does, but we do get to go to quite a few different places, and it's really fun.

John Arnold

The nature of your jobs to the geek in me, and I mean that in the highest honor possible, it's so cool to listen to what you all do. This is one sort of off the cuff. Would you talk about the — is there a weight of pressure that you feel in those situations, you know, working on console on CAPCOM, and then also, you know, Jaclyn preparing for when human Mankind sets foot on the moon again for the first time since the 60s. 

Tess Caswell

I can jump in on that if you don't mind, Jackie. During the Artemis II mission, someone did ask me, you know, are you thinking about the fact that hundreds of thousands of people are watching the live stream and therefore listening to you every time you open your mouth? And so in the immediacy of the moment, there occasionally is that thought of, I hope I don't flub my words, or I hope I don't say something stupid, because you do know that people literally around the world are listening to you. But really, with the mission focus and just always asking myself, what do the crew need? How do I package this information in the way that is most useful and relevant to what they're doing now? When you're focusing on that, To me, that external pressure kind of falls away, and I'm just focusing on doing my job most days, but it does have its moments. I mean, during Artemis II, I was the CAPCOM on console connecting the call between the crew and the President of the United States, which was definitely a moment where I did not want to flub my words. 

Jaclyn Kagey 

That's great, Tess. So for me, I use the pressure on console. I use that to fuel what I am going to say, the decisions I'm going to make, knowing that these moments can be very critical based on if you have a suit issue or a hardware issue, trying to bring that, keep that in the forefront of your mind of what is most important. Everything else falls away for me during the EVA itself. There's nothing that's outside the mission right there. And what really helps is we train for that. We train it over and over again. We come up with what if scenarios, we call it a crib sheet, but we think about all the things that can go wrong, list them out, and then write what we're going to do right beside it so that we're ready for those instances. And to me, it's very comfortable because I know what I'm going into, I know what I'm looking for, and even when some failures happen that aren't what you thought of, you know, there's always something unexpected. You have that training to fall back on to realize that you know how to find the path forward and make the situation work. 

John Arnold

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing about your professionalism and your preparation. That's inspiring. The ISS, the International Space Station, has been on orbit for longer than a lot of people thought that it would be at this point. We're getting close to 30 years now. and humankind has learned a lot from it over the past three decades. So if our listeners are interested, I wanted to share with them about some of the breakthroughs that we've learned as a species from the ISS. They can visit nasa.gov/international-space-station. There are a lot of very cool articles that are worth reading there. But I would love if you would both share some interesting things that we've learned from ISS that we're now adapting to the future of moon exploration through the Artemis program. 

Jaclyn Kagey 

So my most significant lesson from the space shuttle and ISS programs is the critical importance of adaptability in space. flight operations. I've learned that rigid statements, those that contain never and always, inadvertently lead to design decisions with profound and long-term consequences. So for vehicle development, for future missions, we need to make sure we're proactive in incorporating adaptability into the planning and recognizing that each mission we're going to yield new knowledge and insights and being able to accommodate for that. 

Tess Caswell

Yeah, I think that's an awesome framework to think about, that we have used ISS as a proving ground in many ways to really hone flight operations here at NASA, and we can build on that foundation of excellence. and incorporate the adaptability that Jackie was talking about in order to tackle the new challenges that are inevitably going to arise when we have boots on the moon or even trying to land a lander on the moon, right? There are inevitably going to be things we haven't thought of, and the framework that we built through ISS operations is going to enable us to be successful in that regard. And I think a big part of that, from a CAPCOM perspective, is understanding what keeps people healthy and happy in space. and that part of the CAPCOM's job is not just to convey information, but as one of my colleagues said, to end every sentence with, And we love you, because it's not just robots up there on the surface of the moon, but human beings with the whole spectrum of human needs. And part of that is being warm and welcoming and keeping them happy as they're conducting their tasks. And We've learned a lot about how to do that on ISS, and we're going to carry that forward to keeping people happy for a long time living on the surface of the moon, and I'm excited about that. 

John Arnold 

Oh, that's tremendous. I've been really interested in learning from health and human performance specialists with KBR about the dynamics and the inner workings between teams, individuals, knowing what people need and the communication that they receive. So that's an amazing part of your job, it sounds like. But a little bit of a departure from the human element is the technology element, which I'm sure has changed dramatically, probably is not even the right word or even close to the word to describe how it's changed since the 60s. So we are obviously in an era of increased digitalization and modernization. Are you all seeing any huge shifts in how you work from a technology perspective? Are you using things like AI and large language models to help do your jobs at this point? 

Tess Caswell

On the CAPCOM side, not as much. I mean, I know that the technology is there and there have certainly been... some automation tasks that have really helped us, like an app that automatically transcribes everything that is said on the space-to-ground channel, so that all you have to do is glance over, and if you're asking yourself, oh, did they say one, two, three, or one, three, two, you can quickly look over and see for a verification, which isn't necessarily a big AI model, but it is technology helping us do our job more effectively. But I think as a CAPCOM, Part of why we are there is to bring that human element in, and we're trying to take in data that's generated from all the different mission control consoles using tools like what you're talking about and translate that into the big picture that the crew need conveyed via the human voice. So I don't necessarily use too much AI, but I know that there's a lot of room for that sort of thing on the EVA side, so I'll kick it over to Jackie. 

Jaclyn Kagey

That's a great question. And like Tess said, that real-time transcription is one of the things that is new for us. I might be dating myself, but when I started in the EVA group, we would have VHS tapes and we would pop them in and try to record and then play back when we needed something. And now we have a program that brings the video, the audio, and the transcription all into one spot so we can quickly, you know, rewind and get it all at once and be able to help us troubleshoot and provide that faster support to the crew. Besides AI, another technology that we are increasingly using and will use for the lunar surface is virtual reality systems. It's going to be very important in our training and development of EVAs. because the lunar south pole is going to have unique lighting and navigation challenges that we haven't had in the past. So this virtual reality that we have, it allows us to take data gathered from LRO, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, and then visualize specific landing site conditions like lighting and terrain. So there's a few things. We don't totally automate our jobs, but we find tools that enhance our jobs and try to put them into play. 

John Arnold 

Excellent. It's nice to hear about automation especially being in a communication forward job like yours are, that would be extremely important to be able to refer back to that information in real time. So that's very, very interesting. As the world is racing yet again for space, what are the kinds of professional trainings or development activities that you participate in to support you in your roles? 

Jaclyn Kagey

Good question. So there are like professional ones like KBR has some management trainings, leadership trainings that I've participated in. And those are great to help me figure out how to lead my team and where I'm going forward. But on the technical side, I just try to stay proficient in new space technology. So working with the vendors, understanding their processes, and comprehending the iterative approach that the vehicles are taking to their design. That way, I am following along with them, not trying to learn at the end of where they are at that point, but following along with the process so I know where they came from, what the decisions were made, and the good and bad of all the different items. And my team does work directly with the Artemis vendors to offer operational insights as they continue their development to support NASA's Artemis mission. 

Tess Caswell

Yeah, I think Jackie said it really well, that in this evolving ecosystem of Artemis missions, that 75% of our job is keeping up with the evolution of the systems and the missions and making sure that we are both prepared and also tied in helping the vendors where appropriate. And as CAPCOMs, we, well, I should take one step back and say that my role as the lead CAPCOM is to ensure that all the Artemis CAPCOMs get the training that they need And at the same time, some CAPCOMs, they're not full-time. For the most part, either they're astronaut CAPCOMs who have other astronaut duties, or they're what we call engineer CAPCOMs who are coming from another organization who are loaning their time to us to be CAPCOMs. And in both of those scenarios, I need to be as efficient as possible with getting them the training that they need. And so I'm sort of one step further in from what Jackie was talking about, where we have all these systems experts who are interfacing with the providers to understand their systems, and then those folks are building training that the astronaut crews are going to need, and the CAPCOMs are also going to take that training. So I'm tied in with sort of the training development folks to try to understand what the training flows are going to look like and how we set it up for CAPCOMs to engage in those clothes, as well as astronauts, so that we can hit the ground running when we have an assigned crew and we're ready to start training them for their mission. 

John Arnold

Understandably, it sounds like collaboration sits at the forefront of everything that you guys do. And in a job that is full of cool moments, do either of you have a favorite part, a favorite thing that keeps you coming back every day? Sounds like the human element is a huge part of it. 

Tess Caswell

Yeah, as a CAPCOM, there is Nothing like hitting the button and hearing that beep that precedes a call to space. It's called the Quindar that is kind of iconic, right? And knowing that your voice is transmitting to space. I definitely had moments during the Artemis II mission where I made a call and then I thought, my voice just came out of a speaker that's flying around the moon. And it's just wild. And it's not just cool, but it feels impactful. And it's so rewarding to be in that position to enable the kinds of things that we do, even as a small part of this huge team. And so the satisfaction of a shift on console is just something that's really unmatched for me. And that's what keeps me coming back. I just look forward to every single time I get to talk either to an Artemis mission or to an ISS expedition. 

Jaclyn Kagey

So EVA is amazing because I have so many mission aspects that I participate in that I get a wide array of events because we touch on so many different areas. We spend countless hours training the crew and preparing the ops products for it to come together as a successful EVA. But at the end of the EVA, as the crew repressurizes, That's where I truly feel the impact of my contributions, knowing that my work directly enhanced the crew's safety and the mission EVA success. That's the satisfaction I get, and that's what keeps me coming back to pushing forward to do another EVA. 

John Arnold

That's amazing. What are the both of you looking most forward to discovering with the rest of us when humankind does set foot on the moon again in the next few years? 

Jaclyn Kagey

So I actually look forward to the new discoveries we'll make. make. I know we'll gather data on our suits and on the vehicle successes and geology objectives, but my most exciting thing is what's the unexpected. So on Apollo 17, discovering orange regolith, or during Apollo, they use type communications that has now become e-mail that we use every day. It's those type of advancements that I want to see what is unforeseen, and that's what's going to inspire us to continue on. 

Tess Caswell 

Yeah, and I'm right there with Jackie on the unexpected things. Obviously, as someone with a PhD in geology, I'm totally stoked about what the astronauts are going to discover when they get there. What are the orange soil moments going to be like during Artemis missions? And not just the scientific importance of those discoveries, which is going to be key because understanding the moon helps us understand the Earth, but the human element of that excitement. During Artemis II, when the crew were flying through the eclipse and they were seeing only the dark, far side of the moon, illuminated by earth shine, and Victor Glover just all of a sudden just saying, we just went sci-fi up here, right? Like, they were so into it. And so not only were they making these phenomenal scientific observations, but they were humans doing it. And I'm excited to see those two things come together when, you know, Jackie's on the EVA console and a crew member is calling down that they're in a permanently shadowed region and they found ice on the moon or something like that. It's going to be so cool. 

John Arnold

It's just staggering to think about. Let's take you both away from console for a moment and say that you've gone to the moon. What is one thing you'd hope to do once you got there on EVA? 

Tess Caswell

I mean, again, I got to go back to the fact that I've got a geology degree, so I'm going to those rocks and I'm going to whack them with a hammer and nerd out about the mineralogy that I see. But honestly, since I was a little kid, I've dreamed of standing on the surface of the moon and looking up at the earth and appreciating the beauty of the place that we come from. So while I would be exploring the lunar surface, I would hope that I would have a moment to appreciate the very special planet that we live on. 

Jaclyn Kagey

And Tess, that is so like some of the things that I was thinking. I would absolutely do an EVA. There's no question I'm going out that door in a spacesuit. I know I could fill a whole spacewalk full of tasks that I've learned over the years that I want to see happen on the lunar surface. But after watching Artemis II and all those images they shot back of the Earth from the moon, I really hope I could have some time to sit there and just spend time admiring the view and looking at our beautiful planet. 

John Arnold

That's both beautiful sentiments. Tess, Jackie, before I let you all go, are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave our audience with? 

Jaclyn Kagey

My final thought was I was so invigorated watching Artemis II and the engagement the public had with them. I really hope that we can continue that excitement going forward with these Artemis missions for space exploration. It's so easy to forget. We're living in a moment that future generations will remember as the beginning of something extraordinary. As Administrator Isaacman has said, we go not just for flags and footprints, but to stay and build. And I really hope that this will inspire the next generation to dream, just like the Space Shuttle program did for me. 

John Arnold

That's amazing. How about you, Tess? 

Tess Caswell

Oh, so good. Jackie, I honestly couldn't have said it better because I was thinking the same thing. The power of these missions to inspire another generation of explorers is incredible. And Artemis II showed us that desire for the incredible is there in the public. And so I would just hope that anyone who's listening to this, if you've got kids or even if you like space yourself, it's never too late not to try to pull you away from the other job at KBR, which I'm sure is very important. But it's never too late. We've got all kinds of people involved in the space program doing all kinds of things. And if you want to be part of it, if you can dream it, you can do it. And I hope that kids who watched Artemis II are living on the moon someday. 

John Arnold

I know that there are a lot of strategic implications for space, but I think to the general public, it's wonderful to think for a moment that space exploration and being back to the lunar service is something that can inspire and connect people. Do as Victor Glover said, to think about all the things that unite us and make us similar because we're all in this together. And so I want to thank both of you for the work that you're doing to create unexpected moments, to find those unexpected discoveries, and to make an impact for the rest of us. And so I I thank you so much for your time and for sharing with us your very, very important roles. 

Tess Caswell

Yeah, thank you. 

Jaclyn Kagey

Thank you for having us.

John Arnold

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

CONCLUSION

John Arnold

Well, weather working mission control on CAPCOM are getting ready to put people back on the moon. , I hope you agree that the work Tess and Jackie and all of their colleagues are doing does indeed inspire and connect. A thousand thanks to our guests again for sharing about their personal journeys and the awesome work they're doing for KBR at NASA. And thanks again to my excellent colleague, Carri Karuhn, for helping get this episode off the ground. If you're interested in learning more about the work KBR does to support NASA, go check us out at KBR.com. If you like what you heard today and have an idea for an episode topic or a subject matter expert who might be a good guest, let us hear from you. can reach us at inorbit@KBR.com. And finally, as always, we want to thank you, our listeners. Connection is more important than ever. We appreciate you connecting with us and keeping us in your orbit. Be kind to each other and take care.