The Future Runs on Lithium

Mobile phones, electric cars, laptops, not to mention ceramics, glass, lubricants, refrigeration, nuclear and more. The world runs on lithium. And a more sustainable supply is needed to catch up to skyrocketing demand. Listen as Claudia Pudack, Director of Technology for KBR Critical Minerals, discusses critical vs. rare earth minerals, how KBR technologies can help overcome lithium supply-and-demand challenges, and what we can expect going forward for the mineral many are calling “the new oil.”

Transcript

Copy

IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

Season 5, Episode 7

“The Future Runs on Lithium”

INTRODUCTION

John Arnold:

Hello, I'm John, and this is In Orbit. Welcome to the podcast, one and all. Whether you're at work in the gym, on the road, or wherever you are, we're just glad you're listening in and staying in our orbit. I might be a little biased, but even if I wasn't the host of the podcast, I'd tell you that we have a fantastic episode for you, and it's all about lithium.

If you look around you right now, and if you're driving, please be careful. You'll probably see two or three or more things that run on lithium. Without it, they wouldn't run as long or as efficiently, if at all. But getting that lithium from mine or brine into your mobile phone or laptop or myriad other things we rely on took some doing. Demand for lithium is only going up, which means that it needs to be produced more efficiently, responsibly, and sustainably. Fortunately, there are solutions that solve just those problems.

TRANSITION

John Arnold

And I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast today Claudia Pudack, Director of Technology for KBR Critical Minerals to break it all down for us. Welcome to the podcast, Claudia.

Claudia Pudack

Thank you, John. I'm very excited to be here. Hello, everybody, and hello, John.

John Arnold

Hello. We're very excited to have you today. Before we get started talking about lithium and critical minerals, I would love our audience to get an opportunity to hear about you and your career and how you ended up at KBR.

Claudia Pudack

Well, I started my career in geology. Actually, I did my master in geology in university in Germany that is called Freiberg University of Mining and Technology, which was founded already in 1765 and is nowadays considered the oldest university of mining and metallurgy in the world. After that, I actually relocated to Switzerland, to Zurich to be more precise, to start my PhD in geochemistry at ETH Zurich, or also known as Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Since then, I actually live in Switzerland. After my PhD, I started my industry career in a mining company, a Swiss-based mining company. This is where I actually got into contact with crystallization.

This company was mainly mining calcium carbonate, which is known as a mineral of marble, which is used as a white pigment in paper industry, but also for other applications. This calcium carbonate occurs in nature in a very dedicated crystal shape, which is not so ideal for the paper applications. A lot of clever engineers had the idea to crystallize it synthetically using ingredients that would modify the shape of the crystal so that it is better for the paper. We call this industrial crystallization, and this was my first contact with industrial crystallization and my first deeper discussions with engineers.

After that, I changed to the organic chemistry, joining Sulzer, also in Switzerland. That's a company that's very famous for their distillation solutions. Also there, I was involved in crystallization, but this time in organic molecules, and we call this melt crystallization. That's a technology that's predominantly used to purify substances that are heat sensitive. Then only four years back, I got a call from KBR who was looking for a technology director being familiar with crystallization. Since then, I joined and I'm still very happy here. I actually went back to inorganic chemistry. Nowadays, we are dominantly working on battery metals, including lithium, using my crystallization expertise to purify these substances predominantly for their use in batteries.

John Arnold

That's outstanding. I am fascinated by geology. I took a geology course in my undergraduate studies as a music major, because we had to have sciences, and I'd already taken biology and geology was next, and I loved that class. I wonder if I could ask you one off the cuff: could you describe for us, when you talk about crystallization, what do we mean when we use that term?

Claudia Pudack

Okay. Crystallization is in essence the method that is used to turn a liquid into a solid that could be a melt into a solid by decreasing the temperature, by cooling it. It could also be turning a compound that is dissolved in water into its solid salt by removing the water, either by evaporation, sometimes cooling also supports the crystallization. There are other mechanisms in crystallization, but in summary, crystallization is turning a liquid into a solid and at best in its pure form.

John Arnold

Very, very interesting. What is it that got you interested in geology?

Claudia Pudack

Oh, at very first, it was dinosaurs.

John Arnold

I love that.

Claudia Pudack

In fact, I was fascinated by dinosaurs. Actually, my degree is geology/paleontology, but rather soon in my studies, I got interested in all metals and how they form. I slightly changed the focus of my studies and became a major in copper and gold formation.

John Arnold

That is so interesting. I love that. I'm a big dinosaur fan myself. I asked a previous guest on the podcast before, "What's your favorite dinosaur?"

Claudia Pudack

My favorite dinosaur, that's a very good question. I haven't thought about dinosaurs for a long time, but actually I think it's the ... I don't know how to pronounce it in English, but it's the velociraptor.

John Arnold

Yeah, velociraptor.

Claudia Pudack

Yeah, velociraptor, because they're tiny, they are very dangerous. I have seen some pictures lately that even show them with feathers, so it's quite fascinating creatures.

John Arnold

Yes. It's so interesting. Well, thank you so much for humoring me on a couple of off-the-cuff questions. Before we get into the intricacies of our main conversation, if you don't mind, I'd like to give our listeners some context. First, I'd like to define a term that is much in the news lately and that is critical minerals. What are critical minerals and how do they differ from rare earth minerals?

Claudia Pudack

Thanks for the question, John. It's a good question, because rare earth elements and critical minerals are often lumped together or mixed up, but they're not quite the same thing. Critical minerals are essential to the economy and national security of a nation, and they have supply chains that are vulnerable to disruption, which means that the critical minerals are different for different nations or countries. Now, rare earth minerals or rare earth elements are a specific subset of critical minerals. Some of them are considered critical minerals, but not all of them. Rare earths are a defined group of, and I looked it up, 17 chemical elements. Their name is a bit misleading because they're actually not really rare, but they're typically found in very low concentrations, so it is very difficult and expensive to extract them, and it's also environmentally tricky.

Just to give an example of rare earths that is, let's say, more commonly known than others, neodymium is one of the better-known ones, which is used for permanent magnets in wind turbines or electric motors. Now, critical minerals, as I said before, are a whole different story. It isn't a fixed group. These materials are deemed essential to a nation's economy or security, especially when there is a risk to their supply. As I said, the list can be different for every nation, but there are some common elements or minerals that are mentioned in most of the lists that I have seen, and they include lithium, cobalt, and nickel, sometimes also copper, some materials that play a key role in things like electric vehicle batteries, but also power grids and electronics. As mentioned, the list can vary, depending on the country. The U.S. and the EU have their own lists, and these lists need to be updated every few years, because it can change.

John Arnold

Thank you so much for the explanation. I didn't realize that that was the differentiation. Thank you for clarifying that. Well, as the name suggests, and as you've explained, there's a vast importance to these, what are critical minerals used for? You've mentioned national security and other factors, but what are they used for, primarily?

Claudia Pudack

Also, you may not see them, but you likely rely on them every day. There are essential parts of smartphones and laptops, electric car batteries, I have mentioned. They're used in airplanes and satellite systems, medical devices, solar panels, or even cosmetics sometimes.

John Arnold

Wow. Just a short list of super important things, including cosmetics. We couldn't live without them. Let's focus a little more on lithium since that's the meat of our conversation, and I did a little bit of background checking on this just to get a good idea, but I would love our listeners to know where is lithium found in nature and how is it produced or refined for consumption?

Claudia Pudack

Okay. I will start with a very quick description of how lithium looks like. Lithium is a soft silvery white metal. It belongs to the alkali metals and is the lightest among metals. Like all alkali metals, lithium is highly reactive. For instance, it would spontaneously react with water. As a result of that, it is never found in its elemental metallic form, but only either in compounds such as minerals. Spodumene is quite a famous example. Or it is dissolved in briny water as lithium chloride.

Today, lithium is mainly sourced from either hard rock mines in Australia or from underground brine reservoirs in the Andes, mostly in Chile and Argentina. How it is produced? Hard rock miners obviously must excavate the earth to remove the lithium-rich minerals and then extract the lithium from them, whereas lithium from brine reservoirs is already existing in solution in its liquid form, so it only requires being pumped onto the surface into massive evaporation ponds that are used to concentrate the lithium and separate it from other components, using the solar energy of the sun. While mining and extraction are very crucial steps, it's actually refining that then transforms the lithium into battery-grade lithium hydroxide and lithium carbonate, which are the essential forms of lithium for lithium-ion batteries. The refining process includes several steps like extraction, purification and this conversion to reach the necessary levels of purity for the application in batteries.

John Arnold

Let me play my role of useful idiot for a moment. You mentioned brine reservoirs in the Andes. Are those naturally occurring brine reservoirs?

Claudia Pudack

Yes, and they actually occur subsurface, because the Andes are representing desert-like areas and very dry climate conditions. This is why the only source of water for these brine reservoirs is water that comes from rainfalls or from snowmelt. This water would then penetrate the soil and get into the underground where it starts to leach the lithium from the surrounding rocks. With time and due to the fact that they're very rich in chlorides, so very briny, they have the power to leach the lithium, but next to the lithium, they also leach other components, and this is then all found in solution in these briny waters.

John Arnold

Then in the industrial landscape for critical minerals, are those conditions reproduced? Because I would imagine it's not feasible to have all the lithium in the Andes brine pools. Are those conditions then reproduced wherever lithium is refined to achieve that process?

Claudia Pudack

Not quite yet, let's say. Currently, lithium, if it occurs in briny waters, so in these underground reservoirs, it is indeed pumped to the surface and then put into these evaporation ponds. These evaporation ponds require a lot of surface area, but it's a well-established method, and it uses the energy of the sun for free.

John Arnold:

That's good.

Claudia Pudack

The predominant way to concentrate and separate the lithium from other components that are also dissolved in the brine. As mentioned, it requires a lot of surface area. It also requires a lot of patience, because the evaporation of the water takes some time. It can take months to even years to concentrate the lithium to levels that are high enough to then go into the refining step.

John Arnold

That is just mind-boggling to me. Thank you. Thank you so much for clarifying that. We've talked about what critical minerals writ large are used for. Let's focus more on lithium. What are its main use cases and why is it so versatile? Why is it possible to use it in so many different applications?

Claudia Pudack

Okay. I already mentioned that lithium is a very reactive element, and it is actually the backbone of the modern energy revolution, because it powers almost everything from electric vehicles to smartphones and laptops as lithium-ion batteries. Lithium is so desirable for these applications because lithium-ion batteries can hold a lot of energy for their weight because lithium is very light. They can also be recharged many times, they have the power to run heavy machinery, and they lose little charge when they're not used. Plus, they're also long-lasting, which makes them popular for applications where either bulk is an obstacle or where regular recharging of the battery is required.

John Arnold

well, it's easy then to see why the demand for it is so high. You mentioned that one of the reasons we call them critical is because of the vulnerabilities to supply chain. What are the issues with supply of lithium?

Claudia Pudack

First of all, since the demand is so high and it is still growing, lithium production must catch up to meet this growing demand. We have already explained that this is particularly driven by the electric vehicles. Now, I will give you some numbers. In 2024, so last year, there was over 1 million tons of lithium carbonate equivalent mined. This is already quite an extraordinary number, but this output must grow to 2.7 million tons by 2030. This discrepancy between the supply, which is lithium production and its demand is risen by the lengthy timeline for developing lithium mines. Developing lithium mines can take anything between five to 25 years before they become operational.

John Arnold

Wow.

Claudia Pudack

That's a long time, and this presents a significant bottleneck for the battery industry as you can imagine.

John Arnold

That's an extraordinarily wide gap, five to 25 years. Is it just based on a transportation of the equipment? Is it based on local infrastructure? What are the main factors that figure into the discrepancy?

Claudia Pudack

Yeah, that's a lot of factors. One is, as you rightfully said, infrastructure. I mean, if we look into extraction from brines in the Andes, someone needs to build these roads that actually lead you to up to 4,000, sometimes even 5,000 meters elevation. Another aspect is that not all the lithium compounds, the lithium minerals contain the same amount of lithium. Sometimes it is lower, sometimes it's higher. It also requires a lot of time and energy to not only excavate the lithium minerals, but also to concentrate them to create an ore concentrate that is then worthwhile to extract the lithium from. Then last but not least, you also have to build a lot of installations for these mines independent on whether or not, it's a hard rock mine or it's a brine reservoir. All of this can take a lot of time, and one additional factor is probably the permits that you require, because this comes with a lot of environmental regulations. In some countries that can be fast, certain countries like Australia are known for supporting these applications, whereas in other countries it can take quite some time before you actually get the permit.

John Arnold

That is so interesting. Well, here's an important one and one that I know that you'll have no problem answering. What are some different ways KBR is helping meet the growing demand for lithium?

Claudia Pudack

Thank you for the question. At KBR, we have focused on brine reservoirs. The reason is that we wanted to leverage an emerging technology, which is called direct lithium extraction or DLE. Now, DLE is more sustainable and efficient to support the supply chain of the future. Together with our French partner Geolith, we offer a true end-to-end solution from raw brine all the way to batteries or battery components, lithium carbonate. How do we do that? At first, we leverage dual GeoLith Li-Capt® DLE technology, where lithium is selectively and very efficiently extracted from the raw brine. This advanced DLE technology is adaptable to various feed compositions and extraction sources, including very low lithium contents. After the extraction, the DLE product or so-called alooate is refined and converted to battery-grade lithium carbonate using our KBR PureLi℠ technology. The combination of these two technologies supports a sustainable and local lithium production, and it reduces the supply chain vulnerability for this critical mineral, because it also allows us to extract lithium from uncommon or unconventional sources that haven't been economically viable in the past. An example would be geothermal waters or oil field brines.

John Arnold

That is fascinating. Oil field brines, you said?

Claudia Pudack

Yes, yes. Oil field or gas field brines, also called produced waters.

John Arnold

So interesting.

Claudia Pudack

Yeah.

John Arnold

That plays hand in hand to another area where KBR has a lot of deep domain experience in the LNG and different fuel industries, so that's interesting. Having an end-to-end solution for both extraction and refining is vital in this case. What are some of the near-term advancements we can expect to see in lithium technology, and what role does KBR have to play in driving those?

Claudia Pudack

Well, next to direct lithium extraction, have you heard about all solid-state batteries?

John Arnold

I've not. I've heard of a solid-state battery, but I've not heard of all solid-state.

Claudia Pudack

All solid-state batteries are contrary to solid-state batteries where part of the battery could be not quite solid. All solid-state batteries are batteries where all of the components are solid, and this is the reason why they're widely considered as the next generation of batteries. Unlike the conventional lithium-ion batteries that use flammable liquid electrolytes, all solid-state batteries use a solid electrolyte. Also, the electrolyte is solid. Solid electrolytes are not only not flammable, but they also support higher energy, longer cycle life, which means charging and recharging of the battery, and a better durability of the battery. This is why KBR has yet another partner, which is ISU Specialty Chemical from South Korea. We have partnered to jointly develop a pilot plant for the production of lithium sulfide, which is a solid electrolyte precursor, utilizing our technology portfolio. We have been continuously producing high-quality lithium sulfide at pilot scale, and we are now scaling up to commercial production.

John Arnold

Lots to look forward to. Very interesting.

Claudia Pudack

Yes.

John Arnold

What in your opinion does lithium's future look like?

Claudia Pudack

I personally think there's only one way, which is up. The race is on for lithium. As the world accelerates towards electrification and clean energy, I believe lithium is the new oil. But with the rapidly growing demand, I don't think that the challenge is producing more lithium, or it's not just the challenge to produce more lithium. It's also doing it efficiently, responsibly, and at scale. I truly believe that our lithium extraction solution sets new standards for the production of lithium. It offers a cleaner, faster, and more sustainable alternative to the conventional methods of lithium extraction.

John Arnold

Well, it sounds like the future is bright. To put it in the words that you said, where lithium is the new oil, that certainly puts it into context as to how important lithium can be for the future of the planet.

Claudia Pudack

Some people call it the white gold actually. It is also a nice term, to be honest.

John Arnold

Very poetic. Before I let you go, is there anything else you'd like to leave our listeners with today?

Claudia Pudack

Yes. I would like to mention something else, which is equally important for lithium. Recycling is good for climate. When you consider climate change mitigation and reducing your carbon footprint, you probably think about driving less or turning out the lights, but you can also make a difference by making recycling an integral part of your lifestyle and routine. I would like to tell the listeners that I truly believe in recycling, that recycling of lithium-ion batteries will be the next challenge. But just generally speaking, buy products made from recycled materials, recycle everything that you can, and limit the number of disposable items that you purchase.

John Arnold

That's a wonderful thought, a wonderful sentiment to leave everyone with. In the Arnold-Dotson household, we also believe in recycling, so thank you. Great advice. Claudia, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation, and I'm very excited for our listeners to hear it.

Claudia Pudack

Thank you, John. It's been a very pleasant time. Thanks for your questions, and yeah, looking forward to listen to this podcast.

CONCLUSION

John Arnold

Absolutely. Thank you so much, again.

White gold, the new oil certainly puts the importance of lithium in perspective. We want to thank Claudia Pudack for her time and expertise in what has been a fascinating conversation on lithium. I also want to thank my colleague Simran Lamba for helping put this episode together. If you want to learn more about the KBR lithium technologies Claudia mentioned, you can head over to kbr.com and read to your heart's content. If you like what you heard today and have an idea for a future episode, or if you just want to drop us a line, please feel free to email us at inorbit@kbr.com. Finally, we want to thank you, our listeners. We hope you find this content interesting and that maybe you learn a little something. We know that life comes at you fast, that we all stay busy with a thousand things vying for our attention, so please know that we're very grateful to you for spending some time in your day with us and for keeping us in your orbit. Be kind to each other, and take care.