The Art of Managing Change

In our lightning-speed world, change is the only constant, and as David Bowie said, we’ve got to “Turn and face the strange!” Our guest for this episode is the excellent Dr. Brandon Robertson, specialist in change management and readiness with Frazer-Nash Consultancy, a KBR company. Listen along as Dr. Robertson speaks about the different kinds of change organizations experience, the importance of a people-centered approach to change, and how change management can make businesses better.

Transcript

IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

Season 4, Episode 11

The Art of Managing Change

INTRODUCTION

John Arnold

Hello, I'm John, and this is In Orbit.

Welcome to the podcast, one and all. Whether you're a regular listener or checking us out for the first time, we're just thrilled that you're with us and staying in our orbit. If you've been listening along this season, you've heard about artificial intelligence, machine learning, energy transition solutions, large language models, marketing solutions, sustainable technologies. I mean, we've covered a lot of ground. And KBR is using those kinds of solutions to help clients address the great challenges of our time while also helping them achieve their business goals.

Well, you might not know it, but KBR is also about helping businesses just be better businesses. And a lot of times that starts with helping clients figure out how to navigate our ever-changing world, specifically through the discipline of change management. But John, what's change management, I hear you ask. And I'm glad you did because we're going to break it down for you right now. And with me here to talk about it is Dr. Brandon Robertson. Brandon is a consultant specializing in change management and readiness at Frazer-Nash Consultancy, a KBR company. Welcome to the podcast, Brandon.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Thank you for having me, John. Really appreciate it.

John Arnold

It's an absolute pleasure and thanks for sticking with me and talking at the end of your day before a weekend. I appreciate you taking the time out at the end of your day to talk with us.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Not at all. Always excited to talk about things, always excited. And to be honest with you, it's good to finally have this conservation.

John Arnold

And just as a bit of housekeeping, if you or any of our listeners hear a beeping sound in the background, that is because there is a large earth-moving vehicle directly across the street clearing a lot for a new house. So if you hear beeping, just remember this is live, and that happens sometimes, so don't hold it against us. So before we dive into everything, Brandon, I wonder if you'll just tell us a little bit about yourself, because we'd love to hear about you and your career journey.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Oh, of course. Yes, as mentioned, my name is Dr. Brandon Robertson. I currently live in Wales in the United Kingdom, but I'm actually a born and bred Bristolian for those of where that might be. Before I joined Frazer-Nash, I actually did my first master's in aerospace. I did an aerospace engineering degree. I then moved into my doctorate, which was organizational change in engineering management. So I worked with a particular organization to build what were design thinking and systems engineering solutions. And then when all of that started again a little bit sideways, I'll said, "Oh, that's okay. Guess I'll change PhD. Don't you worry about that."

At the time, that was a really interesting organization, really interesting space. So I started my consultancy life over there, if you like. And then after a few years I moved on to Frazer-Nash Consultancy. I did a little bit of lecturing as well when I was there. So I moved through to a few different subjects and I really, really enjoyed it. So that took me to here. While I've been here, I've really worked across civil nuclear defense, secure gov, some internal stuff, some third stuff. Anything and anything, you can throw me at. And it's been really, really great. So really enjoyed it so far.

John Arnold

Goodness, that's quite the breadth of expertise. That's fascinating. Where in Wales are you?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

So I live in there somewhere called Newport. There's two large cities. There's Cardiff, which is slightly further, and there's Newport, and then you've got things like Swansea, which are way out the way. But yeah, not too far away from the England mainland as it were.

John Arnold

Perfect. Beautiful country. But anyway, we're not here to talk about Wales. We're here to talk about change management. Before we do that deeper dive on the topic, I wonder if you tell us what we mean when we say change management. Because when I first was researching the topic, when I thought of change management, I thought of change orders on a project, for example, but that's not what we're talking about. What is change management and how did you first develop an interest in it?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Absolutely, and I mean it can include things like change orders. Fundamentally, it's this idea that what we can do is we can take new and complex things, whether that be models or structures or technologies, and actually make them work with organizations and their people. So it's that fundamental engagement between this brand new idea that we've had or someone might have had in the field and actually making it work and making it operational. It really about taking that current state situation and moving it into a future position or a future structure or a future state. So fundamentally, from a consultancy perspective, all of us consultants do change in some way, form or another. Whether or not we acknowledge that or not, we all have a change background and what that may be there.

The reason I first one is change, so change is fascinating because people are fascinating. People are wildly illogical. They make emotional decisions. And really it's that aspect of it that makes it so interesting because it's a vital thing for us to do to deliver anything, to be able to go in and understand those people, to understand what matters to them, what they care about, how they work. And I think what we try and do, and the reason that I try to get interested in the first place is really twofold, is first to place an additional emphasis on those people because they are both the biggest benefit and the biggest challenge when it comes to a lot of the things we do in this world. And we recognize that a lot of the world is changing. Things move. Things are developing at great speed. Within KBR, they can be involved in massive changes in many, many different spaces. And that in itself is just a really, really interesting space to be a part of.

And the second really is that it's such an underdeveloped area. So when I first got into this space, as an academic, I've read a lot of academic papers from the sixties, the seventies, the eighties. And the things that have come through more recently. Things like Prosci and the ADKAR® process, things like the APMG, all of that is great, but all of that isn't quite targeted in the right way, in certain situations. So for example, something that works in civil nuclear might not work in defense. And I think it's really, really interesting getting in to challenge that with the new context, the new environments, the new situations to try and work out well, what does best practice in this field look like? It might not be quite the same as another one. So there's an opportunity to make a real and kind of significant difference, if that makes any sense.

John Arnold

Yeah, it definitely makes sense. And it sounds extremely important for companies like KBR, as you mentioned, that do have such a breadth of expertise and are in so many different fields and sectors. And we're going to dive more into this, but you recently published a paper online or an article online that I found you did a fantastic job of defining change management.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Thank you.

John Arnold

And outlined a few of the various manifestations, which you've sort of started to mention just now. At the top of that list was culture change. So would you tell us about the importance of managing and developing cultures and what the pitfalls are if a robust change management strategy isn't implemented for that organizational cultural perspective?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Of course, of course. So culture, going back on the idea of people being that really important critical linchpin. Culture is how we engage with the world around us. If we expect something to happen, if we have particular ways of doing things, if we have... The way that we engage, the way that we communicate, the way that we almost feel about the world and the business that we work within is a fundamental part of the culture that we have. So when we have cultural misalignment, for example, that's only with the easiest way for people to feel culture, that intangible thing, between an individual organization, this leads to challenges like performance things, revenue things adopting new changes.

And within an individual, it can be quite unsettling and quite uncomfortable because it's not what we expect. It's not what we think should be. There's a level of uncertainty and ambiguity. So because of that ambiguity, because it's something that's quite intangible, culture is really hard to change. To go in there and say, "Well, I'm going to move this from a point A to a point B." Because there isn't really something you can put your hands on in the same way you might do for a new car or a new structure maybe. And there are a lot of beliefs around this as well that are really important. So a lot of people believe that if a leader changes, culture will follow. Well, that's not necessarily always true. It's a really important point and a really important part.

But really we can design culture and I think that's the thing that a lot of people miss sometimes, is that we can design what we want that future to look like in the same way we can design something else. So really we need to think about the as is, the 2B and how we get from point A to point B. And that's that kind of structure I think you alluded to a second ago. Broadly speaking, it would be find some kind of appropriate cultural model. Obviously, I've got ones that I use based off my PhD studies. There are many that already exist and there are particular ones that are linked to particular consultancy firms, for example. But you can go out there and find an easy way to classify what you do and how you do it. That normally needs to be captured through interviews and focus groups, getting other people together, getting big samples of who might exist and where, and starting to understand what it is that these people care about. Is it the same things? Is there a consistent spread? So, one of the things that I used to teach during my academic time was this concept of cultural silos and how we as a sort of a macro culture have structures. So, part of that is to do with whether or not that's consistent and whether or not that's something that everybody feels the same way with or there's significant differences or how does it work with senior management, that sort of thing.

The other part of that is, is it certain, so I mentioned uncertainty a second ago, but if we have spaces where things aren't really very well-defined and everything's quite uncertain and ambiguous, different cultures will develop in those spaces. So, being able to articulate which of those and what of those may be is very important.

But once you figure that out, actually then it goes into that piece of working out what the future state looks like. So, in the same way you might design, as I mentioned a second ago a car, you want to design the fastest car in the world. Well, there's going to be specialists that know all about that. There's going to be people that can talk to you about all those different intricacies and some interesting pieces. So, we will go to particular specialists in their spaces, we'll go to leaders, we'll go to your exemplars of why culture works right now and figure out what A to B looks like, depending on what that might need to be.

And then, from there, as long as you use the same model or use the same principles, the same fundamentals, it really is just a mapping of one to another. So it's taking that intangible stuff that you can't necessarily put your hands on, giving it themes or giving it a category of some kind, and then saying, "Well, if I want to move from point A to point B, I can do that," because I know that it will involve a change in leadership skills or a change in trust or a change in communications. And it just makes sure that everything is defined and articulated and structured in a way that just normally works for an organization.

John Arnold

So, it sounds like from the going back and doing the legwork of figuring out what the current structure of an organization is at that point and then finding whatever the tangible methods or tactics are for addressing those cultural things, am I understanding that right?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Absolutely. It's trying to get to the root of why people do what they do.

So, one of the things that we can do is, for example, let's talk about the podcast. So, if I said to you now, and don't feel you have to answer this question, but for example, I said to you now, "Let's think about what the good bits and the bad bits about your experiences on this podcast." Maybe there's a lot of prep work, maybe there's some planning, maybe it's priorities and conflicts and things. We can take that down to a thematic level and say... So, taking the piece on priorities, for example, if I spoke to 50 people that did 50 podcasts all for KBR, and they all said, "Well, I feel like this is my highest priority, but I don't have enough time to give to it," or something to that effect, we'd say, "Okay, well, what does that system look like?" Is there a strand that says that it isn't a priority? Or is there a strand that says, "Actually, it's definitely structured, but there's some kind of challenge around it, that means it doesn't always get put first." Maybe people don't work enough, not work enough hours, that sounds terrible, but you know-

John Arnold

Right, right, right.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

When you don't have enough hours in the day sort of thing amongst the other things that are going on, and through that, that's when we get to those more tangible things. We say, "Okay, well, actually this isn't just a cultural thing. This is a communications thing. This is an expectation thing. This is a structural thing, or maybe we can bring some tech in that can streamline aspects of your role and how it works." So, cultural change is so intrinsically linked to all of the really tangible stuff that we have in our day-to-day. It's just as soon as you know what those things are, you can start to actually do something off the back of them.

John Arnold

Well, get ready for another meeting invitation in your inbox for me to talk about change management in the podcast process.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Looking forward to it!

John Arnold

Absolutely. We're going to pivot a little bit to, from culture to the actual delivery of solutions or the delivery of consultancy expertise. So, what about change management and the business of doing business? So, for KBR that's providing solutions, delivering capabilities. How does Frazer-Nash, for example, in change management, in general, help companies do their business better or smarter?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I think it comes back down to that fundamental of everything we do has to integrate with it with particular people, client-side people or organizational people, or even sometimes it's just the general public and the wider audience that may be.

And I think it's important, before we dive into that, to just recognize what happens if that doesn't work. The possibilities are really high level. The possibilities, if a change fails, are either the solution itself doesn't function as it requires. That means that something technical has gone wrong, which normally we have, from an engineering and a technical standpoint, being really strong there, that's something that we maybe don't normally expect or we've got very much a hand on of those risks, those complexities.

The thing that I think sometimes is a little bit less obvious is when it's not adopted in quite the right way or it's not perceived by the people as being supportive and a part of what it is they do. And this is the bit that I think is really interesting. So, how do we work this change into that space? How do we make it work? How do we work with other capabilities?

One of the things that we've really focused on recently is actually building up. We, as Frazer-Nash, don't just do change as an idea, or well, very rarely anyway.

John Arnold

Right.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

What we tend to do with these big programs and these big ideas, where we say, "You want this massively complex thing and we recognize there are going to be some real intrinsic problems there."

So, what we've started to do is bring together the different capabilities that exist in this space. So, we can work with technical people, we can work with communications people, we can work with behavioral science psychology people just to get a blended approach to what it is that we deliver.

So, in my mind, the way that we do this smarter, the way that we do this more cleverly and more efficiently is actually based around the idea of being a collection of different things, or working on that same problem, or working in that same area and actually delivering that with less risk, I think it's fair to say, because that's where a lot of that challenge, I suppose, comes from.

And people might say things like, "Well, we've always done it this way. We've always gone in as a team of technical people and it's always worked and everything succeeds in the end." And I think that's perfectly valid. But then, for those people, what about those difficult scenarios? What about those places where there's been a lot of conversations with stakeholders, there have been challenges, there have been things that haven't landed quite so well? Well, that's where we come in and we get to that optimum point faster, smarter, and with less risk, I think it's fair to say.

John Arnold

You and I were talking before we started recording this afternoon, and then also just over the course of this conversation, and it sounds like the capability of consultancy around change management, that there are a lot of people that have expertise in a lot of various areas. I know it helps you have people that are specifically involved in certain industries or certain sectors. Is the approach agnostic once you've sort of figured out what the approach is and figured out what the secret sauce is, I guess, or the right formula? Are people in your field able to bounce from one industry or sector to the other once you've got a good grasp of what is going on? Or do you have on your teams, for example, specific people that focus on specific things?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

No, I absolutely think that as the change practitioners we are kind of fundamental generalists, if you like.

John Arnold

Excellent. Okay, yeah, that's great.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

You go into any space and you talk about the high level, "We are going to find out what your problems are, we're going to design your solutions, and then we're going to help you implement and embed them into your space." Really high level, you could take that and apply it to any of those many things I talked about earlier or any different spaces. And I think that's in some ways what makes a lot of what we do really interesting, is because we can go into those different worlds and say, "Look, you've been here for 10, 20, 30 years and you really know this space. Let us work with you to make sure that what we are doing and what you are doing are entirely complementary and come together nicely."

John Arnold

I love that. That's fascinating to me. Let's talk about what the role of data or disruptive technologies like AI play in change management at the moment. As these new technologies are proliferating, how is that helping you do your job?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Absolutely. And to be honest with you, this new technology is really fascinating, because there are so many things that you can do with it, that almost, we don't necessarily know yet what it is that we could come to play with and come to the table as part of our delivery. But the things we're really interested in, I mean, just to summarize a few of them, because I think there's just so much of possibility on the boards, artificial intelligence and machine learning. So, amongst ourselves, our core team, things like data analysis and pattern recognition is something that we are really, really interested in. You mentioned that theme aspect from earlier. If we can do that and do that very quickly and more intelligently, brilliant. Excuse me. Data analytics. So, we've got a lot of a focus now on and how we actually give leaders and empower leaders to be able to make those decisions using information from organizations, information from their people, and so on.

Cloud technologies. So we work remotely now predominantly, in many different spaces. So, how do we engage with those kind of remote workforces? There are lots of things that we can do on a local level. And it's great to always be in front of someone and say, "Hello, you." Tap on the shoulder, "Here's what we're going to do today." But sometimes it's not possible. So, that's something we're really, really keen on.

Virtual reality and augmented reality, so simulating environments, I think that's a really fascinating piece. And we've got a team within [inaudible 00:18:48] actually, that I've been talking to recently. That have some really incredible simulations and models and structures that they've pulled out for their clients that give you that really experiential, we've designed for you this thing, but what does it mean? What does it mean to actually stand on that boat and watch this thing move past you? Or to be in that environment and experience some of the work you've done for this hospital or this flow.", or whatever may be. So, I think that's just fascinating.

And finally, gamification. So we talk about engagement with people. And if there's anything that I've learned from my youth as it were, there's always an opportunity to turn it into a game, because it helps. It sets those expectations, it helps people engage with things. It helps people realize this is not a negative thing. How can we get involved? How can we build on this and enjoy this over time?

So, I think there's loads of stuff. But it's so nebulous and so early that it's almost like you could tell me in five years time that something that is completely not on that list, it's completely new, has come out other woodwork. And I would say, "Brilliant. Really interested. Really keen to embed that. Love it."

John Arnold

So in your view, what does the future of change management look like, near-term, long-term? How do you see the discipline going?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

So, I think change is interesting. As we said at the start, I think that it's interesting that a lot of the stuff in this space is quite so, some of it's based off of older models or some of it tends to be general to all areas. And I think that a lot of businesses recognize actually, the world is changing and the area that work within is changing. And there's a little bit of an expectation that businesses have to be agile moving forward to survive, to thrive. So really when we first talked about this question, this podcast, and everything else that comes with it, I did have a think, but I came down to five things, if you like.

The first is organizational culture. So I think our ability to interweave people and that kind of, if you believe that your organization is doing the right thing in the right way, you are going to be happier, you're going to be healthier. If you can have that work-life balance that works for you, I think that is a really powerful message. Not just for delivering stuff, but also for building workforces, for having people that really want to do and want to be where they are and engage with their all in that space.

I've mentioned data-driven change management. So a lot of the time, sometimes we make decisions because we don't have data. But actually, I think we're going into a space now where data is that economy, data is the ... We're going to do a cultural change piece, for example. Well, it makes so much more sense to do it if you understand what that current state culture looks like, what the future state culture could look like. If you've got some stuff to work with, you're not just a leader there who's saying, "Right, I've got to put this on my shoulders now and make this decision." It's actually, "Well, hang on a minute. We can inform this, we can make this work in some way and we can support people to do that." I think that's really fabulous.

People-centric change. I think we are starting to get into a space more so of placing an emphasis on people. So, you know, when we first started talking, you started talking about those structures and managing changes and things like that. I think that there's going to be a flip hopefully soon, very, very soon, where instead of going into a space and talking about a new technology or a new system or a new thing like that, it's almost, how can we make people's lives better? How can we help them deliver better?

How can we fix a particular problem that exists on that user journey of, I wake up... I think the classic one for people who've done user journeys before, the idea being to try and give you kind of a storified version of how something works. I wake up and I'm making breakfast before I go to work. Well, some people say, "Okay, well that user journey is a lot easier if you have a kettle and a toaster in place, for example, to make a cup of tea and some toast. As opposed to setting a fire out of my back garden and trying to do it by hand."

But being able to go into that space and almost build those stories where we can talk about people, we can talk about who these key people are, the key stakeholders, the personas, for those of you who like to use personas. I think that's just so valuable and so, so important. Flexible resource models. Taking a complete slide away from that, when we actually come and do this sort of thing. I think there's a concept called a flexible resource model, which essentially involves having a core team in place in a particular position, and then a reach into specialists.

So for example, if we had a major program of work and we were working with, I don't know, energy client, energy client, you'd have a series of generalists that exist the entire way through the project. Project management, change management, a few different people in communications, for example, and many more, as I'm sure it depends on what the project may be. But let's say now that energy project needs a very specialist person who works in a very particular field of engineering. We don't need them the entire time because it's not useful and productive.

So part of what I think that actually the future of change looks like, is that management of a resource pool to always deliver value to clients, to be really efficient. To make sure that every single thing that happens in this process is a value to somebody or a value to a system or value to a person. So that when you have that problem, you can just say, "Okay, don't worry about it. We have a specialist here who can sort that." And that even goes down to things like behavioral science, psychology. Imagine you get into a space and you are working with a particular organization and something suddenly goes quite wrong. If you could snap your finger suddenly and have a specialist on hand to deliver that alongside you, there's so, so much value in that.

And then the last one is a continuous change. So I mentioned a second ago, I think that lots of businesses recognized that the world is changing. I think that being able to set businesses up to be agile, to be flexible, to recognize that there are ongoing things that might exist in the world, and that it might not always be a reach back into somewhere. But actually just within the organization itself, being able to be flexible and move with the times. If we can set people up to do that, and actually we can do change with that idea in mind, that when we walk away at the end of a particular project or particular program, that area can be really resilient and really strong. I think all the more to that space because it just builds that value in what it is we do, how we do it, and how we deliver change moving forward into the future so that we are as best as we can possibly be. Of my, what I would say, there or there abouts.

John Arnold

Yeah. It sounds like a big part of it based on what you were just saying, is the kettle versus the fire in the back garden analogy, is that you helping organizations think about things that they might take for granted. Even from the basic, what do my employees need fundamentally to really do their jobs well. In your work it sounds like, I mean, you're covering a lot of ground. There are obviously many various kinds of change management. And obviously there's a need for it, as the world does continue to become faster and faster paced. Are you seeing an uptick more and more companies realizing that they need this kind of expertise just across the board and across their whole operation?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's really representative of things like this, for example. I put out some relatively regular things at the moment on LinkedIn. I've previously have published lots of papers. And it's the way and the conversations that flow from that I think that are really interesting. When people say, "I haven't thought about this before, but I heard you talk about a particular cultural thing." Or, "I didn't think about this technology." Or, "I thought I could never implement it because implementation always seems to not work in this particular space." I think that's where this kind of build is starting to come from.

Realizing that actually every organization can do it. It doesn't have to be the people will fall in line because you tell them to. It can be, there is a real journey to this. There is a real kind of series of steps we can take. And we can place that value on our people at every single step of the way if we want to. So, how do we do that? And that's the really big open-ended question that I think a lot of companies, or a lot of people I work with anyway, have started to really come to, it's that we recognize that this is this wonderful, we've got this wonderful new thing that we want, and we just want to have the confidence and make sure that we configure out that ambiguous, intangible, fluffy bit in the middle and make sure this actually works in the long term. So really, really interesting stuff. Yeah.

John Arnold

It's encouraging to hear that as someone who thinks a lot about our capitalist system. And coming out of the industrial age, it's encouraging to hear about companies taking more seriously and really thinking about people specifically, that's the biggest thing that you've said today that I think is fascinating, and that is that we hear a lot about creating efficiencies and boosting productivity and things like that, but you really have to meet people where they are to help them do that. So it's encouraging to hear that that's such a big part of what you and your teams at Frazer-Nash are doing.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Absolutely. No, absolutely. And to be honest with you, I think this is where sometimes that common language thing comes in. So when we talk about change, for example, some people will see change as the management of something, the management of an implementation of something. Some people will see it as that kind of interim ground and that big block that says, well, all we can do the management of something and kind of some of the people a bit. And some people will say, well, change is the hearts and minds element of everything we do. And actually project managers do the management of bit.

So I think that as a real flexibility in a lot of what we do as change managers, it depends on who we talk to, how it's styled. Some places I'm changed, some places I'm transformation, some places I'm culture, whatever people need me to be. But I think that you're right, the fundamental element of all of that is every time we go in somewhere, it is about the people. It is about what they want. It's about understanding what those core beliefs might be. And sometimes we get people that are really vocal as individuals about particular things for example. I'm sure if you think about different places you've been, then you have respective listeners, think about the places they've been, there's been times when someone's been complaining about something in particular or might have mentioned something that's really bothered them about something that goes on. And we obviously take that on board.

But understanding what those beliefs are is even slightly more fundamental. Because if you can do that, if you can get a group of people that say the same thing, or if you can get a consensus among a certain area that actually something doesn't quite work or the new change you're planning to implement is actually going to impact something really important that they care about, even if it's not part of a system or part of a structure or part of a process, that's really meaningful. And actually I think there's so much value to that, so much value to that.

John Arnold

Well, gosh, I have enjoyed this conversation immensely. Is there anything that you'd like to leave our listeners with before we let you go and enjoy your weekend?

Dr. Brandon Robertson

To be honest with you, it goes back to that point of something we said a second ago. And please come and talk to us. I want this to be the start of many more conversations. I think that it's really important and valuable for people to engage because then it helps us decide what are we going to do next, what we focus, we talked about technologies earlier. If you turn around to us and say, look, AI is the thing of the future for our organization, and that's absolutely where we want to be, brilliant, let us know and we will start to think about that with some more detail and put some more possible time and effort there. So please come and talk to us. And other than that, no, just thanks so much for having me, John. I really, really appreciate it. And yeah, hopefully we'll speak again soon, I'm sure.

John Arnold

Absolutely. Yes. You can find Brandon on LinkedIn, I know. And if you do a Google search, you can find several articles that are very, very enlightening and very, very interesting, and well-written as well on the subject of change management. Dr. Brandon Robertson, thanks so much for being with us today.

Dr. Brandon Robertson

Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate it. I really do.

CONCLUSION

John Arnold

Well. Now I have an excellent David Bowie song stuck in my head. Change is the only Constant, and we want to thank Dr. Brandon Robertson for taking time out to come on the podcast and speak to us about it. If you want to know more about the expertise, Brandon and the amazing folks at Frazer-Nash Consultancy provide in change management and numerous other critical areas, please visit fnc.co.uk. As I mentioned, you can also find Brandon on LinkedIn, or any of his excellent articles online.

You can also learn more about Frazer-Nash and the breadth of KBR's robust portfolio of world-class solutions over at kbr.com. If you enjoyed today's episode or if you have an idea for a future episode, please let us hear about it at inorbit@kbr.com.

And as always, thank you. Yes, you there in your car, at your desk, in the gym, wherever you are. We know there's a lot going on in the world today and that your time is precious. We appreciate you spending some of it with us and for keeping us in your orbit. Take care.