Pride and Allies: Building Community at KBR

In celebration of Pride Month in June, host Lubna Salim leads a candid conversation with Penny Voget and Joel Davies, both members of KBR’s Pride and Allies employee resource group. Listen as Penny and Joel share about their personal experiences and discuss their thoughts on Pride Month, the importance of people engaging and educating each other about their differences to build acceptance, and resources available for people looking to proactively overcome bias and become allies of the LGBTQ+ community.

Transcript

IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

Season 2, Episode 9

Pride and Allies: Building Community at KBR

INTRODUCTION

Lubna Salim

Hello, I'm Lubna.

John Arnold

And I'm John. And this is In Orbit. Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast. If you are returning to us again, we are so grateful that you're here and welcome you back. And if this is your first time, we're glad you're with us. Lubna, how are you?

Lubna Salim

I'm very well, thank you, John. And what's happening in your orbit?

John Arnold

Oh my gosh. In my orbit, it's sort of a rainy, dreary day here in Atlanta, but I like rainstorms, so I can't complain. Had a nice weekend. My girlfriend and I went up to the North Georgia mountains and just kind of hung out and relaxed. How about you?

Lubna Salim

Very well, thank you. And also over here, I think this furnace of a city has gotten a bit of a break because last night we had amazing rainfall and lots of thunder and lightning. But a lot of trees fell and there was a lot of water logging.

John Arnold

Oh, no.

Lubna Salim

Yeah. But it was a very, very welcome respite from the heat wave that was upon the city.

John Arnold

Oh, I'm sure.

Lubna Salim

So everybody's feeling nice. People are out today and they're just having fun in the park.

John Arnold

Good. I'm glad that everyone's feeling refreshed. That's important.

Lubna Salim

Yes. And I watched the second season of “Bridgerton” this entire weekend. So a bit hungover from that. So yeah.

John Arnold

Oh yeah. We are currently watching the show on HBO called “The Staircase” about the writer back in the early 2000s who was accused and tried for murdering his wife. It's a good show. If you're unfamiliar with that story, it caused quite a sensation. Go back and watch that. But Lubna, we're not here to talk about TV shows, as much fun as that would be, maybe a different podcast. What are we here to talk about today?

Lubna Salim

So Pride Month is around the corner, and we thought what better way to begin to just get things started than have like episode ahead of the month just to kick off the celebrations. And since Pride and Allies is such an active and amazing group within KBR, we got two of the members from the group, Penny Voget and Joel Davies, to talk about their experiences. Penny openly identifies herself as a bisexual and Joel is gay. And this is what this episode is all about — celebrating them. I mean, I was not really aware about it in so much detail until I spoke with Penny and Joel, when they joined us from Leatherhead, that this group is also open to other people who are wanting to support the LGBTQ+ community. So I think whoever is interested, you can go ahead and just be active. I think they're quite active on Yammer. So that is a good avenue to support the group.

John Arnold

Excellent. I can't wait to listen. Let's dive right in, shall we?

TRANSITION

Lubna Salim

So we have with us on this episode Penny Voget and Joel Davies, who are joining us from KBR’s Leatherhead office. So to introduce Penny to all of you, she's the head of supply chain operations with both the Government Solutions (GS) International and the Sustainable Technology Solutions (STS) international business at KBR. She actually joined the company in 2008 as a senior subcontracts administrator, but she actually started her career in South Africa as an events manager. And on moving to England, she started a new career in supply chain as a temporary administrative assistant with BAA, the company that owned Gatwick and Heathrow airports. But Penny left BAA to join KBR starting in corporate subcontracts for London. And she moved to Government Solutions in 2009, where she was responsible for both UK and international supply contracts. Penny has been instrumental in shaping the way that GS supply chain operates and has always taken ownership of her career and has been very successful in KBR, being promoted three times within supply chain and reaching her current position of head of supply chain operations for GS International and STS.

She's successfully transitioned all GS EMEA's transaction supply chain work to Chennai, which she launched in 2018, which is four years back. And the team has grown in strength from four to 15, and she manages a global team based in India, [UE?] and the UK now. And Penny is amazingly passionate about diversity across KBR and launched the LGBTQ+ Pride and Allies employee resource group in 2021, of which she was the chair. Penny has two children, Catherine, 27, and Nicholas, 22. In her spare time she is also a volunteer police officer with Sussex Police.

And our other guest on the show is a relatively young KBR employee. That's Joel Davies for you. He's a KBR contracts officer who's managing Programme and Project Partners (PPP) with the Sellafield project in GS EMEA region. A recent graduate, Joel has been with KBR for around seven months now, and following his bachelor's degree in law with Chinese, he completed his master's degree in law specializing in international intellectual property law.

In October, he was recruited as an assistant contracts officer within the PPP Sellafield project within the UK. Within a couple of months, Joel became the PPP services contracts officer. His role has since involved many activities, which include providing specialized contracts expertise through the PPP, developing and delivering a contract training suite of presentations to PPP colleagues, to enhance competence, collaboration, and understanding of contractual obligations, and developing specific contractual documentation and procedures for the PPP.

Now, when I spoke to Joel, he said that as a gay man, KBR has provided him with fantastic opportunities to become part of the Pride and Allies community and to find senior role models with shared experiences, which is amazing. And this has allowed for exceptional career development through networking, even within just the first seven months of being part of KBR. So thank you so much, Penny and Joel, for agreeing to be a part of this episode, which I'm sure is going to inspire a lot of people. Welcome to the podcast. And my first question to you, Penny, is that you launched the Pride and Allies at the beginning of 2021 and served as its chair for the first year. So tell us about your journey and walk us through this whole experience of launching the group.

Penny Voget

Thanks very much. And thank you again for having us. Pride and Allies was actually launched just at the end of 2020 by Jackie Fox and Simon Parrot, both of whom are no longer with KBR. And me and Sam Fox and Dan John stepped in to do the formal launch and to take it forward in the first year. What we discovered fairly quickly — that Pride and Allies as an ERG [employee resource group] and because of the group that it serves, the LGBT group, a community that it serves — is somewhat different to if I can say standard ERGs, where there is overt and open support. The LGBT community has historically suffered from significant discrimination, which means that the community themselves are not always prepared to step up and step out. So we had to be very aware of this. The approach I took was a top-down and bottom-up approach. So the very first thing that we did was get a slot with the executive leadership team (ELT) and I prepared and presented our opening words to the ELT in February or March of 2021. And we did a very basic presentation and request of what we were asking from the business, which was that people attempted to understand the very basics. So the language — what did it mean? What were we asking from them? We asked them to please support this ERG by talking amongst their teams and inviting me to their teams where I would give the same presentation.

In this presentation, we acknowledged that KBR hasn't done so well in the space in the past. So KBR were late to the party. However, we’re there now, and it's irrelevant what went on in the past. We need to progress forward. We haven't always behaved appropriately, and I refer to an incident that happened in the GS EMEA business unit about 10 or 11 years ago. We acknowledge that it happened. We accept that we behaved, including myself, inappropriately. And we work harder to make sure that these type of things don't happen in the future.

Lubna Salim

And Joel, I'm going to roll the next question to you as to what Pride and Allies does. Please share with our listeners.

Joel Davies

Pride and Allies I think primarily is really about educating those within the business about people from different backgrounds and those specifically within the LGBTQ+ community. So lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and those who identify as queer, and the plus obviously for many different areas as well. I've not been part of the group for too long, but I know the group has hugely impacted me and my time at KBR. And I can go on and talk about that, I know there's sort of questions relating to that a bit later as well. But I think that education, like Penny says, is probably one of the key areas that sort of educated people on what those different things mean — LGBTQ+ — and what other people can do to support those within the business, which they might not have done before or experienced in the past.

Lubna Salim

So Penny, Pride Month is obviously an important time for the LGBTQ+ community and its allies. What does it mean to you personally?

Penny Voget

As I discovered my sexuality quite late in life, despite knowing it, I never thought it was right to identify with that. But … so for me, Pride Month is a space and a time where people who belong to that community, and I do, can just feel like there is additional support that exists and that we can step into this space proudly. I really enjoy the fact that in Pride Month, there are sort of heightened LGBT activities. So participating in Pride events and just being surrounded by people that are positive about this community. I celebrated with … last year in Swindon, we had a stand at Swindon Pride, which was just incredible because there is a whole load of positivity that goes around it. There's no need to be concerned that anything that happens is going to be negative. It's just of a groundswell of positivity. I equally went to pride in London, probably in 2019 now, and that was just Swindon Pride on a much bigger scale. And again, the positivity and meeting of like-minded people who just accept you for who you are is very special.

Lubna Salim

And Joel, tell us about your experience of working with KBR and being a member of this group. And what significance does Pride Month hold for you?

Joel Davies

Absolutely. So I started working with KBR back in October. And as it was, I suppose it was my first sort of major corporate job, I wasn't quite sure of how open I should be maybe at first with my sexuality and things like that. I was a bit nervous to be honest. And as I'm sure you're aware, the nuclear/engineering sectors are very much sort of dominated by many sort of straight white males. And I remember before I started, I wasn't quite sure necessarily how welcome a little bit of diversity might be in such an area. But to be honest, when I first met my team at KBR, I felt sort of reassured straight away. It was quite a small team and really quite close knit. We worked well together, and I got to know my colleagues really well, and I was always sort of treated as one of the team. But I didn't really had that opportunity to discuss anything to do with sexuality, which just wasn't something that came up in a conversation really.

But I suppose quite early on, I started to keep updated with the Pride and Allies ERG posts on the Yammer site. And yeah, I think seeing that there were people sort of like me across the business, even if they weren't necessarily in my office or my team, really helped me feel a bit more comfortable within KBR. And a couple of months went by, and Penny started I think noticing my participation with the group on Yammer and just sent me a message to get me a bit more involved. And there was never any pressure at all or anything like that, but it was just the opportunity I'd sort of been waiting for to get me involved with other people like that in the business. And since then, I've been involved with meetings and chatted with LGBTQ+ people across KBR and also new acquisitions, Frazer-Nash and Harmonic.

And I think that really gave me the confidence to, I suppose drop into conversation with my colleagues. And that I have a long-term boyfriend, something which I might not have had the confidence to sort of mention before. But I actually think more interestingly, what Pride and Allies has given me so far … as a young gay man, actually, I suppose I know a lot of people my own age who identify as LGBTQ+. But what I've never really had before is the chance to talk to sort of more senior professionals who might identify within that community as well. And this group, I think, has really given me the opportunity to have role models, which I really feel that I have shared experiences with and whom I can probably relate to more than I ever have been able to before.

So I'm actually really grateful for that. And I feel very supported within KBR because of that reason, I suppose. But I know you mentioned Pride Month as well, sorry. I'll keep it quick. I think probably Pride Month to me is a fantastic opportunity, as Penny said, to celebrate some of the amazing progress which has been made towards equality. And to remember that we have the rights we do because of all those who've sort of fought before us to work so hard and fight for that change.

But personally, like a lot of young people, I spent a lot of time when I was a bit younger sort of hiding who I was not knowing if I'd be welcomed or even safe if I was treating myself. And I think Pride Month really is a time for those people with shared experiences and maybe have gone through that struggle to be able to come together and sort of celebrate the fact that we are finally honest about who we are, and we no longer have to sort of hide in the shadows if you'd like.

And I think, as well as highlighting those big steps that have been made in terms of progress, I think Pride Month is also a time for reflection and acknowledgement that there is always going to be still so much more to do. I mean, in Europe, in a week we've gone from celebrating at young footballer's bravery the other day for coming out at only 17. And a few days later now we've got a player in Paris who's receiving huge support online and on Twitter for actually refusing to wear a Pride T-shirt. There's still huge issues and controversy going on there. And of course, around the world, I'm very aware that there are still countries where it's still incredibly dangerous to come out. And I think as well as using Pride Month to celebrate, I do think it's important to use it to raise awareness of that and not take for granted how truly lucky we are to be in a state where hopefully one day I could have a family and a career and not have to hide my true self, something which I know many people around the globe won't perhaps be able to do.

Lubna Salim

How important is it for organizations and workplaces to have gender sensitivity today, Penny? And how does KBR fare here according to you? And are we already there or is there work to be done still? And I'm going to circle back to Joel for his views on this right after.

Penny Voget

It's a great question. Thank you for that. It is absolutely imperative for organizations to have gender sensitization. It's not only gender, but sexuality sensitization. And actually it's more than that. It's a much bigger piece in terms of race and all that sort of thing. However, from this perspective, KBR has stepped out into the light, they have moved from being in the conservative shadow, shall we say, and stepped into the light.

There has been a recognition from the very highest level that this is necessary not only to support their employees, but to bring in the diversity that people that are different to the standard accepted individual bring to a business. It brings a new and different way of thinking. And there is plenty of research — although I can't quote it at the minute — there is research that has shown that the more diversity you have, the more diverse your thinking, and the more likely you are to have a successful business. That is a given these days. The more diverse you are, the better it is for your business.

The fact that KBR recognized this and has taken some positive steps in this regard is very promising. Since we launched Pride and Allies, we have had nothing but 100% support from the top down and from the bottom up. It's been overwhelming in regards to the support that we've received. There are as always some negatives, which we deal with. No big deal. And we welcome people with differing opinions, and we wish to engage with them and discuss the situation. This is not about militantly hammering home the LGBT agenda. That's not it at all. It's about being able to open up and engage and discuss the differences between us with everybody.

The answer to, “Are we there?” or “Is there work to be done?” There is work to be done. There is always work to be done. It's not a case of just launching it and then stepping back and waiting for it to work. Those of us that have participated in leading this group have understood the huge amount of work that needs to be done. And as Joel referenced, it's not the same in all of our locations or territories. There are people who work with us that cannot even show their support, irrespective of their sexuality, because to do so will have very severe consequences. People can't come out because they will be killed. It doesn't get worse than that.

Our intention is to work in those spaces that we can, to inform those places where LGBT is not particularly well known, and provide information and education, so that one step at a time we can get there. I just want to reiterate again, we have nothing but 100% support from our senior leaders. And certainly within the group that I work in and the business unit that I work in, everybody is very supportive and nobody has ever said to me, well, unless it's a money thing, but nobody's ever said to me, "No, you can't do that." I think that the group needs people who can step up and be vocal, but still recognize that not everybody can do that.

Joel Davies

I think like you're saying Penny, I think just to reiterate, KBR is a global organization that there will always be work to do. And I think the KBR teams of teams, it really is a melting part of people of all sorts of different cultures, nationalities and backgrounds. And it's about ensuring that we have, where possible, the best possible practices to bring those people together and educate them. I think, as you say, there will be a lot of questions and it's not necessarily that people are being aggressive or angry or upset about the group. It's that there are plenty of things they're not aware of or questions that need to be asked. I think it's really great to have people here not only to support people from LGBTQ+ background, but plus to be able to answer those questions as well for people who might have some concerns.

Penny Voget

If anybody who hears this would like to talk with either of us, please reach out. We will support any decision you have about talking publicly or not. It's absolutely, completely up to you. But if you feel the need to have a conversation — and again, it doesn't matter what the conversation is because you may not be coming from a positive place, you may have questions — we are more than happy to entertain those.

Lubna Salim

So guys, we hear so much about people needing to “do the work” when it comes to overcoming biases, whether they're conscious or subconscious ones. A lot of time, it feels like it falls to the community, whether it be minorities or the LGBTQ+ communities to actually educate others. What are some of the ways that people who want to be true allies and learn more to overcome those biases can be proactive and hopefully educate others? Does Pride and Allies have resources available that interested employees can access? Actually, Penny, I think you would be able to enlighten us on this.

Penny Voget

The answer is yes. Yes we do. And probably the most important resource we have are the people, because everybody has an open mind and they're willing to entertain any sort of question. The other thing that we do have is a SharePoint page, which is linked from the KBR main homepage under ERG groups. And there's a lot of information there. I think last year, one of the messages or lessons rather that we learned was that people are very keen to be allies. They don't understand how they can be an ally. And it became evident to us that education was the way to do this. A very basic education and explanation about “What is the terminology?” A lot of questions around “How do I know to say the right thing? How do I know when I'm being offensive?” People really want to be part of it, but they are scared that they offend. And the message there is don't be scared because if you are asking it, honestly, nobody is going to be offended. Sam Fox, who's the chair this year, has launched a library initiative. So in all the locations around the world — such as Australia and the UK, I think there's in the U.S., there may be somewhere else and hopefully in Chennai — we can buy some books, and we're going to put that into a public space where people can read the books and educate themselves, again, without potentially outing themselves as being unknowledgeable.

Lubna Salim

And your views on this, Joel?

Joel Davies

Yeah, I also think one of the key things is the group itself is called Pride and Allies. And I think when a lot of people see an LGBTQ+ group, they sort of think, "Oh, I wouldn't want to impose on that, it doesn't affect me. But obviously I support them in whatever they do." But that doesn't mean you can't take part. The group is Pride and Allies. And I think one of the most reassuring things when I first went to one of the Frazer-Nash meetings is there were people in there who were seen as allies who might identify a completely as straight, have straight families, straight relationships. But they were there really to show their support and network and make friends just like the rest of us. But really demonstrating that they were an ally.

And that's something that I think makes you feel probably the most supporting thing for LGBTQ people across the business, because it gives you that confidence not only to have those role models and friends who identify the same as you, but also that there are people who wish to support you throughout the business as well. So yeah, just a reminder, I suppose. It is Pride and Allies, so anyone can feel free to take part.

Lubna Salim

So we are finally coming to the end of the podcast. And to that end, I would like to ask you, Penny, as to what are some of the ways that you engage with members of Pride and Allies. And I know that Joel touched upon it during the interview when he said that you reached out to him by seeing him active on Yammer. But I would also like to know if you have any fun activities or workshops, which are open to members of this group?

Penny Voget

Probably one of the best ways to engage with Pride and Allies is, as I found Joel, I saw he was commenting on the Yammer post, he was reading them. And so I reached out to him to find out if he was interested in being part of the group. There is a conduit there in order to be able to show your support. The website's SharePoint page has got pictures of all the Pride and Allies group members and the leaders. You can contact them through email, or you can contact them on Teams. So you can connect with them individually and personally. We do attempt to set ourselves up at various events like Zero Harm Day, where we had a little store. We've got pins. And I've actually sent a batch of pins to Topeka in Chennai, plus some pins with Pride and Allies on them as well. So she has that merchandise in order to be able to spread it amongst the Chennai team, which I know is new because it hasn't been launched officially in Chennai yet.

Joel Davies

For me, a lot of it's been sort of online activity. So taking part on Yammer at first, there's a huge amount of posts on that page that are really worth having a look at. I think Daniel has posted a huge amount on their — sort of news stories every week keeping people updated on LGBT news, which is fantastic for people across the business, whether you relate to that community or not. It's great news to relate to. And also sort of taking part in different meetings as well across the business and across new acquisitions as well to get to know people within the business and all of those who wish to support us as well. So, yeah.

Lubna Salim

Thank you two for taking time out and being part of this podcast, and looking forward to connecting with you two super soon. Thanks a lot.

Penny Voget

Thank you so much for having us and for the opportunity. And again, can I reiterate, if anybody has anything they want to talk about in this regard, feel free to reach out to me, to Joel, to Sam Fox. We're always available and ready and waiting.

Joel Davies

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Lubna.

TRANSITION

Lubna Salim

So that was the episode, John. And what do you think about it? What are your thoughts on the kind of content that they shared? Yeah.

John Arnold

I think it's wonderful. I think that it's wonderful that a group like this exists within KBR. I love the acknowledgement that though we have buy-in from the highest levels of the company, from top to bottom, and lots of interest and engagement, that there's still lots of work to be done. But that it's getting done. That's very encouraging.

Something that you said to me at the beginning before we listened to the episode and then something that they mentioned was people are finding each other and engaging with one another and then becoming part of the community via Yammer. So yes, if you're listening, KBR, don't sleep on Yammer. That's a great tool at your disposal for connection. I also loved the point that they made. It's like — the group is not about militantly hammering home an agenda. It's about bringing people together to engage, to discuss, so that we can accept all of our differences and grow together. And yeah, I really, I love that. And I also love the fact that they both made themselves available for people that want to learn more.

Lubna Salim

Absolutely.

John Arnold

Yeah.

Lubna Salim

So that was quite an enlightening episode for me also, because I feel a lot I'm very generally attached to this cause. I thought it was a good avenue for anybody wanting to support the group and just to discuss, just to be there. And that's what ONE KBR is all about.

John Arnold

Absolutely. Could not have said it better myself.

Lubna Salim

So with that, we will take your leave for this episode, leaving you hopefully with a lot of food for thought, a lot of reflection. And of course, to get ready to celebrate Pride Month with a lot of joy and gusto.

John Arnold

That's right. And if you're interested in learning more about KBR ERGs, you can go to the Who We Are page on the website and navigate through there. But that's at kbr.com. If you have any questions for us, hit us up at inorbit@kbr.com. And with that, we'll check you guys later. We'll see you next time.

Lubna Salim

Bye.