Accelerating the Global Energy Transition

With the realities of human-caused climate change now undeniable, more and more governments and companies around the world are committing to curbing emissions and operating more sustainably. One of the most viable solutions to accomplish that is energy transition. In this episode host Joanna Bedford sits down with Ben Sawford, global vice president of Advisory Consulting at KBR, for a discussion about what energy transition is, what some of the different strategies involved are, and how KBR is emerging as a leading voice in the industry as interest in energy transition grows.

Transcript

IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST

Episode 6

“Accelerating the Global Energy Transition”

INTRODUCTION

Joanna Bedford

Hello, I'm Jo.

John Arnold

And I'm John.

Joanna Bedford

And this is In Orbit.

John Arnold

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. We're glad that you're all with us.

Joanna Bedford

This is a podcast for everyone inside and outside our business that talks about what's happening around the world and in our various industries, and that keeps us all connected and in each other's orbits.

John Arnold

If you're new to the show, welcome. And if you're tuning in again, thank you and welcome back.

Joanna Bedford

So John, good morning or good afternoon, depending where you are in the world.

John Arnold

I know. Where in the world am I? I am in a closet in Atlanta, Georgia, and it's about noon.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. John always goes to the closet to film this podcast, because it's the most soundproof room.

John Arnold

That's right. It's like Harry Potter in here.

Joanna Bedford

Although I can see your wardrobe's changed. You've gone from like T-shirts to now scarves and coats hanging up.

John Arnold

That's right.

Joanna Bedford

Transitioning.

John Arnold

That's right. Getting ready for that seasonal weather.

Joanna Bedford

Although I think your weather is way better than ours. Ours just goes from kind of warm to rain and cold and yours, actually, you have seasons.

John Arnold

Yes. Yeah. North Georgia has beautiful seasons and I always sort of take it for granted that the UK is an island country. So you guys just have crazy weird cold island weather all the time.

Joanna Bedford

All the time. Yeah. I think it rains more often than not and it's very depressing. I keep saying I was just going to go away to a hot country, but that's not going to be happening anytime soon.

John Arnold

Eventually, eventually. Well, we're not here to talk about the weather are we?

Joanna Bedford

Never.

John Arnold

We're here to talk about energy transition, and I have to say I've been really, really looking forward to this episode just because this is a topic that really, really interests me personally. And after listening to your interview with Ben Sawford our Global VP of Advisory Consulting at KBR, I was not disappointed. It was fantastic.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. I was really looking forward to recording this one. I work quite closely with Ben anyway, and he's so passionate about what he does, and I think it really comes through in the episode itself and it shows his passion for what's happening. So should we have a little listen in?

John Arnold

Let's tune in.

INTERVIEW

Joanna Bedford

Joining me today is Global Vice President of Advisory Consulting, Ben Sawford. Welcome Ben and thank you for joining me today.

Ben Sawford

Thank you. Really happy to be here and happy to have this chat.

Joanna Bedford

So we will start by just getting to know you a little bit better. So a brief bit of history. Ben has led transactions and environmental audit teams in 40 countries and directed and completed over 1,200 projects for a diverse array of clients. He's worked and has close relations with the majority of international law firms in the UK, along with major capital banks, financial investors, and sponsors. In addition, working with corporate clients, Ben's been involved in the management, negotiation, and production of operational environmental permitting of facilities across various industries in the UK, Europe and Asia. Ben now leads the global Advisory Consulting team at KBR. So Ben, can you tell us a little bit about what is entailed in a usual day for you?

Ben Sawford

Well, I'd say those days have changed significantly as probably everybody across KBR over the last couple of years. It's a global organization obviously, and the global Advisory businesses is no different to that. So I typically like to start quite early, and it has become earlier and earlier after the transition, it's just much easier to get work done. I find about 4:30, 5:00 in the morning, which might sound —

Joanna Bedford

That's really early.

Ben Sawford

Yeah. It might sound a bit extreme, but nobody's bothering me then. So 4:30 to 5:30, I can clear through some email, get my thoughts straight. Typically, with what I found pandemic, and post-pandemic, is it's so much easier to get ahold of people. So we end up with just one [Microsoft] Team's conversation after another, after another, which means you don't get that chance for creative thought. And that for me is what I do in the morning.

And then the day, Jo, just carries on with, I try and blank out a few parts of the day, at least three hours, so I can continue to actually do work as opposed to just have meetings. Those meetings are incredibly creative and constructive. They're strategy meetings with my SLT or they're with the key accounts that I hold as well, and we hold, typically around the world, and I will chase the sun, rather like others do in the business. I'll start in Australia and end in Houston sometime in the early evening.

But I have to say it's not all bad. I definitely find time, particularly in this kind of new agile working, and encourage the rest of the teams do the same. For family and time just to be with each other rather than just work, work, work. We always find time during the day.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, because you got a dog on lockdown didn't you?

Ben Sawford

I did. I did indeed. And hopefully she'll be quiet during this interview.

Joanna Bedford

It's a good excuse to get out and walk.

Ben Sawford

Without a doubt. Well, I speak from personal experience. I piled the pounds on over lockdown and that dog is certainly helping remove them, as is my 13-year-old who's enjoying taking me for very long bike rides again, which I'm really loving.

Joanna Bedford

Oh, that's nice. Well, I'm looking out the window, and I'm sure it's the same for you, it started raining here. So I think autumn has crept upon us suddenly.

Ben Sawford

It is here, Jo.

Joanna Bedford

Yes. So I will make a note that if I need to get ahold of you it'll be 4:00AM.

Ben Sawford

Oh, good.

Joanna Bedford

Noted. So you have over 26 years of experience leading transactions from a technical and environmental perspective. What have been some top-level highlights in your career?

Ben Sawford

I've been incredibly lucky to be in some fantastic businesses, Jo, with some awesome people. And I think it's very hard to find one highlight, and so I wouldn't. But I started in 1994 when the whole idea of sustainability was a little bit in the distance. We talk in KBR about using the lens of advisory for what's going to happen in the next two, three, four horizons. And back in '93, '94, nobody was really talking about this, and the whole of my career has been a highlight to see this transition.

But I was lucky enough in '94 to end up in a part-Anglo, part-American business, and the American side of the business was really promoting sustainability through one of their clients, Coca-Cola, and the British business had not a clue what sustainability was. I had just turned up fresh face and they said, "Do you know what this environmental due diligence and this sustainability stuff is, Ben?" I said, "Well, I can probably work it out." And within a matter of two or three months of being a grad, I was sent out to South Africa to help Coca-Cola manage their sustainability framework before it was called sustainability. Did a really good job as a team and I ended up being seconded to Coca-Cola for a couple of years, flying around the world, running some of their operations in South Africa as a 24-year-old, fresh-faced grad. Fantastic.

I think it has to be the highlight of my career because I was so young. And I even learned to fly an airplane in South Africa. You just don't do those sorts of things nowadays, or rather I hope we do, but we don't see it that often. So that would be easily, easily the highlight — just looking through rose-tinted glasses back at the start.

However, and this might sound slightly sycophantic, but I would say looking back at the last four years at KBR, it has been a hell of a journey. Coming in when I came into the business, four-and-a-half years ago, there was so much oil and gas. We were in the golden age, if you like, or second or third golden age of refining. We were coming out of very low oil prices. And I came in and said, “I quite like this idea of energy transition,” and explained to a few of the grownups in the business what that meant. And I'm just so, so happy and grateful that I was given the opportunity with a massive team across ONE KBR to really help drive that agenda, and just to see where we are now, advising governments and major clients and new clients and new markets around the world on energy transition, I think, is possibly the proudest part of anything that I've been involved with.

Joanna Bedford

Definitely. I mean, one of the key projects you've just completed is working with the Singapore government on their sustainability for the future. So, that's an incredible achievement.

Ben Sawford

Yeah. Well, maybe as we go through this chat I'll talk about a few others, but that's the first of many. And operating at that level — because that was the prime minister's office — Operating at that level has got to be where we want to play. It's a lot different from the heritage oil and gas, but it includes heritage oil and gas. It includes heritage clients, governments. It includes technology. So it really does bring it all together under one banner.

Joanna Bedford

So, I think we've already touched on what the theme of this podcast is, which is energy transition, and it's already clear how passionate you are about it. So our first question on that is some people might hear the term energy transition and think it means something like transferring one form of energy to another, say, fossil fuels to renewables. But it's much more involved than that. It includes renewables, hydrogen, ammonia and decarbonization strategies. There are lots of different factors. Can you give us a quick crash course into energy transition?

Ben Sawford

For sure, Jo. In the basics of what you've actually just described there and the basics of it, it does mean transfer of energy from one form to another. But therein lies the problem, because you have different agendas around the world, and they've matured. You have the very, very green agenda that says we should stop burning fossil fuels tomorrow. We should dispense with the car, the motor vehicle. We should just have green energy, just have our nice electrons coming from wind farms. It's a great utopia, but unfortunately, given the way the world is, given we live in a global economy, globalization, given the demand for energy is going through the roof ... it only goes up. So the answer is not to switch everything off and hope for the best. The answer is to understand how you can, as you've said in your question, actually, how you can decarbonize to start with. How can we remove the carbon from our existing processes?

It's not a long-term solution. It's not sustainable, but you have to start there. The money that's invested in our global economy and our global industrial base is immense. You can't just get rid of that tomorrow, so you've got to start with decarbonizing it. And we're involved with some of that in the likes of Jurong Island and the Middle East. But I think the crash course to this is actually finding those cheap electrons, those cheap electricity part of the electrons from wind farms and soda farms and hydro and geothermal projects around the world. Finding those in stable countries with stable economies and converting those electrons into something that's useful. Electrons are useful, absolutely. You put them into electrical lines and send them around the world. Great. But if you can take an electron, turn it into a molecule, chemical, you can then combine it with all manner of other items of chemistry.

And you've actually just replaced what you've got in the petrochemical world. So the stuff that we get from oil and gas, you've converted it into something else. And you can do that with hydrogen. Hydrogen is the building block of petrochemistry. So that's the answer, is transition, decarbonize the transition. Turn that cheap electricity into something that everybody needs. We all need plastics, despite the hate of plastics. I think if anything came out of the pandemic, it was we actually need plastic. We just need to be responsible with it. And to make plastics, you unfortunately need petrochemicals. Or in this case, hydrochemicals from hydrogen.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, it's the perfect alternative.

Ben Sawford

Yeah, without a doubt.

Joanna Bedford

So with energy transition, it sounds as though there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach. Needs are different from customer to customer. But is there one solution that stands out as having the biggest potential to make a positive change? Are governments and businesses leaning in one direction more than others?

Ben Sawford

A great question, and a great segue from the previous one, because there isn't one size that fits all. And there probably isn't one solution. There's solutions for different markets. And I think this is where it gets a little bit interesting, an opportunity interesting for KBR and other businesses like KBR, because the market has been dominated for the last 100 years by energy from oil and gas. And energy from oil and gas is changing dramatically, and at the most incredible rate of change. Those oil and gas companies used to be called international oil companies, now seen as international energy companies, are desperately trying to decarbonize their portfolio, so their business. Now, that's CCS. That's carbon capture and sequestration. Without a doubt, that's the biggest potential to make a positive change to that market.

Now, I think other markets that are growing around the world which are driven by governments, and new businesses, so pioneers if you like — people just coming into this market, which are probably more technology-agnostic and a little bit more entrepreneurial, flexible, agile, able to invest in new technologies because they see a new market. They're not kind of sea anchored, if you like, to the past of having to prop up their profit and loss. They're actually looking at new profits and new markets. And in that particular market, they are interested in CCS in the same way that the international energy companies are. But moreover, they're interested in new sources of energy. Green hydrogen, as I was talking about earlier — taking electrons and turning them into hydrogen. Taking waste products, power to X, waste to X, something ... By X, I mean anything, but taking it and putting it into a circular economy.

So I think we're at this strange but really exciting time, where as a business of KBR, you can support our heritage business. But at the same time, we could be looking very much to the next 10, 15, 20 years, this idea of net zero '30, '40, or '50, and supporting those businesses that are probably going to be the big names, the big changes. Let's look back in the late '90s or early '00s. You had Nokia as a dominant or Blackberry as a dominant phone supplier, and now it's ... well, it's Apple. You look at Blockbuster and Netflix, you look at all those transitions ... I think right now, it's finding those clients that are embracing a technology, because it isn't one-size-fits-all. But it's finding a client that's going to embrace that new technology, and perhaps not following them, but actually leading them and pulling them in the right direction.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, and they just need that support to get there.

Ben Sawford

Absolutely, Jo. And with the business that KBR is in with the government, with technology, the best technology in the world for some of this energy transition and advisory, I think we really do have something that's world class. I would say that, wouldn't I? But with a little bit more focus, and focus on where the future is, I really do think that we are going to be hard to compete with. And we just need to keep moving in that direction and running fast as we can.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. And you've actually segued very nice into my third question, so thank you. Hundreds of governments and thousands of businesses around the world have joined initiatives such as the UN Global Compact and the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. Is the ramp-up of these kind of global efforts translating to calls for help from governments and companies asking, "How can we do this?"

Ben Sawford:

Singapore is a great example of that. I could talk, and I won't, for about half an hour on this. But the Prime Minister's Office of Singapore, they're a trading economy. They trade on hydrocarbons. Jurong Island, if you've ever seen it, Jo ... I think you've done One Ocean out in Singapore, and you can see the industrial complex. It's enormous. They are based on LNG. They're based on oil. They needed to become relevant. They cannot trade in the future on oil and gas. How do they trade? How do they attract investment? Temasek, which is their sovereign wealth fund, has to invest money wisely for the next 20, 30 years with good returns. So they are absolutely reacting to joined-up initiatives such as UN Global Compact, UN Framework Convention Climate Change, Paris Accord. They're absolutely reacting to that, and we're seeing that all over the world.

Canada, 15% year-on-year reduction in CO2 emissions. That's not a desire, that's mandated. That is what they will do. And then I guess we start listening to our prime minister, just back from New York. And absolutely, his rhetoric was, “We have to do it now.” Now, that's being driven by social and public sentiment without a doubt, but it's being driven by business. Business wants this. Business sees the opportunity. So there are global efforts. COP26, clearly, just around the corner in a few weeks' time. That is driving this. And we are getting companies and governments saying, as you've put in your question, "Hey, how do we do this?" And as a business, all I'm finding is, well, who do we want to help? Because we have an A team, but we have an A team and it's not that big. We probably need to build on it. But actually choosing where you want to behave, where you want to play is really, really, really key for this business, for KBR. But also, I just identifying the ones that will make the difference I think is really critical.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, and how incredible being instrumental to Singapore's change and how they run everything.

Ben Sawford

Definitely, and actually, when I think about that, the whole of Asia has really been so progressive in this and so reactive in a sensible way. They've moved quicker than any other parts of the world. They don't seem to be as bogged down with red tape.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah.

Ben Sawford

The Japanese government ... well, if people weren't aware of this, they did kind of lead the way in LNG. They took great positions with liquefied natural gas several decades ago, and that's the trading agreement that is in existence between Australia and Japan. And they're doing the same thing, so they're really looking for hydrogen. “Where do we go? Well, let's start with Australia. It's sunny and we can get green hydrogen.” Just the speed and being able to lead those conversations as we are with the Japanese government and obviously with the Singaporean government. Yeah, it's a great place to be and Asia is definitely, definitely piling in there.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, and related to that, what do announcements like the EU's Fit for 50 [is actually Fit for 55] initiative or China's plans for a new carbon market mean for the energy transition industry?

Ben Sawford

So definitely, definitely accelerating. I mean, Fit for 50, it's 30, and we're seeing other parts of the world saying, "Well, let's ban fossil fuel cars by 2025." There is a major push here. China's plans and their five year planning for carbon markets, it's fantastic for the energy transition in market in terms of speed of development of the widgets of the technology with a word of caution. And again, this is a word of caution with opportunity. The more we get into the rhetoric of we need Fit for 50 or Zero Carbon 30, the more unintended consequences that we are seeing are lying out there. You need some incredible materials to really meet the demands of energy transition, rare earth elements or critical minerals. These are the tiny weeny things that are inside your iPhone or your Samsung phone that make it work, and there is a finite resource available on our planet. We're hearing people about mining meteors and asteroids and stuff because that that's how valuable this material is.

But for the global market, if we end up with China taking that dominant position or America fighting for that dominant position, I think we're going to see some really interesting points of conflict for demand for those materials in superconductors, in very specialist motors, and power generation equipment that goes into wind farms. That equipment will become as important, I believe, as the most valuable solar resource on the planet, say Chile or say somewhere in the Middle East. I think the source and availability of that material will become really very important, rather like at the moment, the availability of HGV drivers on our roads is actually more important than the availability of petrol and diesel coming out of a refinery. It's that consequence of demand and all of the parts that go into the supply chain. So China, India, Americas, Western Europe really need to keep an eye on. We need to be driving this conversation. Really need to keep an eye on the supply chain, not just the shiny, shiny of there's some really cheap electricity over that way. That really cheap electricity is not going to turn into a Fit for 50 unless you can actually hold onto the whole supply chain and make it work.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, that's really interesting. So it seems like it is, but based on the conversations you're having and what you're seeing as an in insider into all of this, are these actions on the part of companies and governments in earnest, are people finally seeing the existential threat that climate change is?

Ben Sawford

Definitely, Jo, and I think they have been for the last couple of decades. There's been some interesting moves by, there's a chap called Paul Polman. He was the former CEO of Unilever. And when he took his role, he kind of did a bit of a Google: “We will not do bad.” That was … “Do no evil,” I think was Google's catchphrase. Paul Polman did the same sort of thing. He actually started looking into, or got his business to look into, the supply chain and said, "We need to understand this supply chain so that it doesn't fall over. We need to invest in the supply chain." And he set up things like B corporations, which is B standing for “Be good,” getting into the guts of the supply chain so that it was no longer acceptable for the likes of, what did he acquire? Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's ice cream is no longer acceptable for the ice cream just to be sold at a unit cost and make a unit cost of profitability for Unilever. Instead, it had to ensure that the whole supply chain made a profitability and that it was reinvestment.

Now you might be thinking, “What's that got to do with energy transition?” Well, energy transition is one component of sustainability. It's probably the most important component of sustainability because it will affect all our lives. But by going into that supply chain and ensuring that the distance away from Unilever of a dairy farmer somewhere in the Midwest of America was ensuring that the energy they were using was green energy or zero-carbon energy, they're ensuring actually that the final product, that lovely tub of ice cream you get, actually was zero carbon or minimal carbon, and also had taken care of its supply chain in terms of reinvesting. Because if you reinvest into the supply chain, including into the energy mix of that supply chain, then you're inevitably ensuring the longevity of your product. And actually, for Generation Z and those that come after, that from what I'm hearing as an insider — insider just about to turn 50, but either way — looking at what Generation Z they wants, they want to know that their product is green, is sustainable, is socially acceptable. And those companies that make that change — Paul Polman is … I think he was called St. Paul actually, when he bought Unilever — but those companies that do that, I think have got a far longer presence in the marketplace.

So we are seeing those companies make those change in earnest and governments around the world. Yes, you've got your fairly green governments in parts of Europe, but we're definitely seeing governments drive that policy. Singapore — just go back — Singapore, is driving that policy. It really is seeing the existential threat of climate change, but climate change being part of a far bigger thing.

I'll just finish on that question, and I know you've got more questions for me. But if we don't — and I know governments are seeing this — if we don't act to the existential threat of climate change, not only are the scientists' science is there two degrees, three is increases, and it sounds like a nice hot summer for the Brits. Well, we end up with floods. We end up with forest fires. We end up with the problems we're seeing in America, in Canada with the Arctic Circle. All of that makes great headlines. I think the piece that people probably don't see is climate refugees. We're seeing major influxes of people from Afghanistan and horrendous scenes. Put climate onto that, that pales into insignificance. You start losing vast swathes of land on ocean seaboard. You're going to see a huge number of people moving around the world. And that threat is significant. And I believe, personally, that's why governments are suddenly really waking up to the threat and really making some change.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, it's just something you can't ignore anymore.

Ben Sawford

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. So Ben, where do you think a company like KBR stands in the midst of all of this?

Ben Sawford

Well, Jo, I alluded earlier to, I do believe that we're in a great place with three pillars — two pillars and a bit of support from Advisory, I should say — to actually address the problems that we've described in this interview. We have some fantastic technology, and we are — look at last year's acquisition and equity investment in Mura for circular plastics. We start looking at some of the investments that KBR has made with Harmonic and has-yet-to-be-finally-signed investment in Frazer-Nash, along with the STS [Sustainable Technology Solutions] business in terms of technology, in terms of TLIS — so Technology-Led Industrial Solutions — we have a capability really to advise at the earliest possible stage — clients and investors and governments — and then follow through and deliver. It's the, “We deliver” message, science and technology to governments. Those messages are as true today as they will be in five or six years’ time, I think. I think we stand at the crossroads of advising heritage oil and gas in terms of decarbonizing their portfolio, but actually governance and new investors. New investors is really, really key to this. The BlackRocks, the major investors that happens to KBR.

But the BlackRocks who have ESG — environmental social governance — written throughout their business profile, I think we can advise those companies very elegantly, and governments, on where they position their investments for the future, their master planning for the future. So how do they construct the city of the future? There's defense as well. And it's defense, not offense. But how do you provide effective defense, military defense, to ensure that you're ready for climate change. You're ready to welcome your borders and redeploy people and make sure your countries are suitable for a new world.

I think KBR, we probably stand really very well, head and shoulders, above many others. And socially, what I've seen across KBR is our social governance has really moved. It's moved with the times and in front of the times. So I think as a business, our ESG credentials are really shining through. And I think as a business, we probably, stand in the middle of it, and stand to gain socially and financially quite well from this. Not to gain the system, but actually to move with the system. And be a highly progressive company.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I do have one last question to throw on you. What piece of advice would you pass on to others?

Ben Sawford

In terms of anything?

Joanna Bedford

Anything. It can be related to any energy transition, or it can be a piece of life advice. Whatever comes to mind.

Ben Sawford

Okay. Energy transition is one of those areas, I think, that don't get Facebooked. don't get social media-rized. Read around the subject because I keep two social media streams. One is very much the “Oil and gas is great, and to hell with all the greens.” They don't know what they're talking about. And then I keep this blue/green agenda. So, somewhere in the middle and over to the green.

And I just try and counsel them off against one another. Don't get sucked into the latest fad and the latest technology. But at the same time, don't ignore it. And keep an amazingly open mind. Because the next latest, great thing is probably around the corner. I've said this one before, quite a few times on some webinars. But if you sat down in 2011 and said, "Tesla will be the biggest car manufacturer in North America by 2020," you'd have been laughed out of the room. And yet that's exactly what it is. So don't turn away from the obvious. And I'm just going to give you a life one as well. Next time we have a pandemic …

Joanna Bedford

Yeah?

Ben Sawford

… put a lock on the fridge.

Joanna Bedford

Okay. That's brilliant. Thank you.

Ben Sawford

No worries.

Joanna Bedford

Before we wrap up, I'm just going to ask you a few quickfire questions. Don't think before you answer. It's just whatever comes into your head first. And on the theme of locking the fridge, sweet or savory?

Ben Sawford

Definitely savory.

Joanna Bedford

Window or aisle?

Ben Sawford

Definitely the aisle.

Joanna Bedford

Hybrid or electric?

Ben Sawford

Electric.

Joanna Bedford

Current book you're reading?

Ben Sawford

Oh, it's just to my left and it's “Great by Choice.” It's very dull. And I've also got another one called “Prisoners of Geography.”

Joanna Bedford

Is that one better?

Ben Sawford

“Prisoners of Geography” is much better.

Joanna Bedford

Okay. Well, Ben, thank you so much for your time. This has been really insightful, and I've loved talking to you and it's been great to speak.

Ben Sawford

Likewise, Joe. Thank you and see you in the office.

Joanna Bedford

Thank you.

Ben Sawford

Cheers.

Joanna Bedford

Speak to you soon.

Ben Sawford

Thanks a lot. Bye.

WRAP-UP

John Arnold

That was, once again, tremendously well done. Very informative. And I hope that everyone listening along, thought it was as fascinating as I did.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah, I have to say, I think one of my favorite bits was when he was talking about Coca-Cola doing sustainability framework in 1994. I just wouldn't have thought that that was even on their agenda, at that point.

John Arnold

I know. Atlanta-based Coca-Cola, little Georgia startup, doing their part before it was cool.

Joanna Bedford

Is that where they originally came from?

John Arnold

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Joanna Bedford

Wow. 1994. Ben was there.

John Arnold

I know. It was two years before I graduated high school and had never even heard the word sustainability.

Joanna Bedford

And I was one.

John Arnold

Man. I'm old. I had no idea. No, I guess that would have been about eight years before I graduated from high school. So, not quite that old.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. I think it's great to see that it really was in the picture then as much as, "Okay. It's taken some time to get to where we are." I think now, it's massively fast-balling and we're getting somewhere with it. Which is great to see.

John Arnold

Yeah. The range of solutions that energy transition — that that term encompasses — is incredible, first of all. And then also, the fact that there are so many businesses and companies and governments that are truly on board, as you guys talked about, it gives me hope and is very inspiring.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. I think it's amazing. I heard about blue hydrogen and then found out there was green and also pink and I'm waiting for an orange or a yellow to come out.

John Arnold

There's gray and brown. It's crazy.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. It's brilliant.

John Arnold

Anyway. Thank you for all the legwork you did on that. And for your amazing conversation with Ben.

Joanna Bedford

No, you're very welcome. It was wonderful to do, and I think he really enjoyed it as well.

John Arnold

Yeah. Before we sign off, I want to thank our listening audience once again. Also want to give a shout-out to our producer, Emma Bradie, for all the excellent work she does on a bi-weekly basis to get the podcast out and sounding great. We appreciate that. And we thank everyone again for listening.

Joanna Bedford

Yeah. Thank you so much. Speak to you soon.