When you hear the term “circular economy,” you might think about closing the loop on waste. And that’s important! But what about the concept of closing the loop on conventional economic business models, particularly in infrastructure? Host John Arnold is joined this week by Rocio Rutter, KBR principal of Circular Economy and Sustainability, in a conversation about circularity in infrastructure and how it can function as a true change engine that can help companies and governments transform their strategies, operations and business models, both economically and environmentally.
When you hear the term “circular economy,” you might think about closing the loop on waste. And that’s important! But what about the concept of closing the loop on conventional economic business models, particularly in infrastructure? Host John Arnold is joined this week by Rocio Rutter, KBR principal of Circular Economy and Sustainability, in a conversation about circularity in infrastructure and how it can function as a true change engine that can help companies and governments transform their strategies, operations and business models, both economically and environmentally.
IN ORBIT: A KBR PODCAST
Season 3, Episode 8
What Goes Around – KBR and Circular Infrastructure
John Arnold
Hello, I'm John, and this is In Orbit. Welcome to the podcast, whether you're listening for the first time, or you keep coming back for more. We know there's a lot in a day that demands your attention, and we appreciate you spending some time with us and for staying in our orbit.
If you listened to our most recent episode, you heard KBR's corporate sustainability officer Adam Kramer, talking about how KBR is turning ESG [environmental, social and governance] commitments into meaningful action and opportunity. Well, this week we're going to stay on the topic of sustainability, but we're going to talk about it in a way that maybe you haven't considered before, and that is as it pertains to infrastructure.
KBR's Infrastructure Solutions business, which is part of KBR Government Solutions International, has been, if you'll indulge me an American expression, on an absolute tear for the past few years. That just means they're doing really, really well, delivering consistently strong performance on an impressive litany of critical public and private infrastructure projects. They also have an excellent pipeline of opportunity for the future that includes supporting the historic partnership between Australia, the UK, and the United States known as AUKUS. And they'll also have a critical role supporting KBR Sustainable Technology Solutions business in areas such as energy security, energy transition, and other sustainable opportunities.
One increasingly important aspect of delivering sustainable infrastructure solutions is the concept of circularity. If you've listened to the podcast before, you may have heard us talk about how KBR is creating true circular economies through some of the solutions we offer. With us today to talk about circular infrastructure is Rocio Rutter, KBR principal of Circular Economy and Sustainability. Welcome, Rocio.
Rocio Rutter
Hello, John. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to you today.
John Arnold
Absolutely. Now, I've looked at your bio, and you've had a very interesting and multifaceted career. So before we get started talking about the topic at hand, would you just tell us about yourself and how you arrived where you are today, particularly your work in sustainability and sustainable supply chain?
Rocio Rutter
Oh, thank you. Sure. Okay. Well, looking back in my career, it kind of started 20 years ago in South America, which is where I'm from. And I started working particularly in the sectors of mining and resources. My background is in engineering and supply chains and operations, particular industrial processes. So I work with them and that's how through working across different countries in South America in the mining sector is how I ended up working with BHP Billiton, and that's how I moved to Australia.
And I quickly moved into the management consulting sector whilst I diversified from resources and into more asset-intensive industries, predominantly in the energy space and supply chains around operations and logistics and the like; so trying to stay closer to those organizations that had large supply chains, which was the area I was very passionate about and defining and setting up how the movement of goods and assets, that was very interesting to me. And that's how I moved around in different industries in Australia and learned what were the complexities and how were those supply chains designed here.
I did a master's with the University of Melbourne in supply chain management, deepened that expertise in that area of interest. And over the course of 10 years, I've delivered many projects ranging all the way from strategy and operation execution, supply chain transformation, customer experience, operations digitization and digital transformation. And yes, I did move in some of those consulting years into the technology space, predominantly from the angle of how technology enables business optimization and enables and scales business initiatives. So we worked with large enterprises trying to integrate technology into the transformation programs.
And with all of that experience, the one thing that I kept running into, to put it one way, was one word and one big thing, which was change, particularly the resistance to change that we as human beings have, and it's natural to us. So across all these programs at work, the bigger objectives that corporations or boards had in their minds, those goals were not being met, and predominantly down to how individuals were trying to maintain the status quo and not being engaged with the reasons for that change. So it really sparked it me this search for, there's got to be a bigger reason to engage a person, a group of people, towards that common goal and that common objective that is beyond profits and is beyond what technology could do or any technological change.
And in that search is that I came across a circular economy. And what I've learned, I put myself through a few courses trying to understand more about it, it just dawned on me that the practicality and how easy to translate those concepts into operations, particularly supply chains, value change, into the metabolism of resources and resource extraction, consumption, transformation into products for our everyday life.
And yeah, that's when I made the personal decision to switch everything that I knew and have done up until this point towards that bigger purpose of positive impact and to filter down all of the objectives and the values associated to the sustainable development goals and the climate change objectives that globally were being set up at the time as a value and a driver for change and for something that can unify people under that common goal of regenerating our planet, to do better in how we deliver business and what we do, but also giving a blueprint and a bit of a template in the practical sense of how you do that, right?
And that's what circular economy does. It gives you ... it's a tool. It's a means to an end, right? It gives you that blueprint, that template for companies to actually transform and translate it into their strategies, their operations and business model. So for me personally, it was a big watershed moment in my career and transforming all of that towards that goal and how best to do that closer to where the action takes place, and moving from a career perspective, from tier 1 to 2 consulting firms that I was working with at the time into engineering firms where they're closer to the delivery of these projects and the decisions that happen about them.
John Arnold
Outstanding. I love the idea of, as a vehicle of change, circularity being that. And so, before we really get into it, I want to talk ... our listeners are smart folks, obviously, but on the offhand that anyone listening might not know what circular economy or circularity means, could you explain that for us, please?
Rocio Rutter
Absolutely. Yes, sure thing. Well, I normally like to start describing the problem first, right? What's the problem that circular economy is looking to address? And basically, in simple terms, the problem is associated to our current linear economic model, and to put it simply, we take resources from the ground or natural services like minerals, water, et cetera. We turn them into products or services that we use or consume. And then, upon the first use, we dispose them as waste, right, leaving significant value on the table as a result.
So for many industries, operating on this model has become significantly risky and unsustainable, and unsustainable not only from the environmental perspective, but unsustainable as an avenue of growth. It's not infinite growth if you are dependent on the consumption of resources for your growth. That's the unsustainability part as well in this business model of operating in the linear economy.
So the way we describe it for businesses in our context is access to resources being the number one biggest risk, higher cost to access those resources, lead time to access them, and reliability on the supply chains that will provide them to you, particularly for a country like Australia where we have longer times to get to us.
John Arnold
Right.
Rocio Rutter
The second big risk is, as I've mentioned before, those unsustainable business models linking their growth to their resource consumption. I've mentioned that earlier. And third as well, is the cost and risk of waste. So as I was saying, we're leaving a lot of money on the table. We are also, because of the crisis in multiple countries as a result of China deciding not to buy our waste, is that we're seeing now the problem increasing and then we don't have the industry to process that waste. So government is reacting in terms of regulation and cost associated to disposing, but also looking into intervention regulation that is changing things like extended producer responsibility, social license to operate when your business is seen as wasteful and pollutive. So that's predominantly the biggest risk to a business.
So in response to this, and to help a systemic change to this, is that the circular economy was designed as an alternative economic model that redefines growth, that builds economic, natural and social capital for the company. And that does provide, as I was saying earlier, that risk-adjusted blueprint for organizations into how you will change, what you will need to change, how you will redesign your supply chains, your operations, and your supplier networks to looking to transform and become more futureproof, right? And it does this following three simple and important principles design out waste from the get-go, keep materials in use at their highest value, and regenerate natural systems. So that's basically in a nutshell what the circular economy is.
John Arnold
So just hearing that explanation, it seems pretty intuitive how that could translate to something like a building project. You just kind of put the pieces together. So would you please walk us through how the concept of circularity does translate to something like infrastructure, say, for urban or city planning?
Rocio Rutter
Sure. I recently presented this concept to our engineering teams internally. And whilst the risks that we described before around resources, CO2 emission, waste and everything prevail to the infrastructure sector, they're quite present and relevant to our sector. Predominantly the one associated to resources scarcity really resonated well with our engineers. They gave me significant amount of examples of where, in the projects today, they are already seeing the impact of this. And our industry consumes 60% of the world's materials, and it's responsible for close to 80% of the greenhouse emissions. So it's a big lever to pull for us to change and important for us to change. So the way how I introduce that concept was to three levers that we can use to integrate circularity in how we deliver typical infrastructure projects across the lifecycle. The three levers we spoke of is when we're looking at designing, determining the functional requirements, the concept design, providing a range of strategies for material selection for that design, or asset lifetime extension of the asset. Thinking of asset life cycle, whole of life, as opposed to just how is it going to be constructed which predominantly it is today.
Definitely, as engineers, our biggest lever is to use design to introduce change, and to design assets that can not only perform structurally or mechanically but can do that whilst also performing well in regards to emissions and circularity. So there is no point, for example, having a road that it's mechanically sounded and structurally sounded, if making that road or building that road, we're going to emit significant amount of emissions throughout its lifecycle. So things like that are important to now be informed with decision-makings when we're choosing materials, when we're choosing design alternatives of the whole.
The second one as a lever of influencing infrastructure that we talked about was circular procurement. So once we're making decisions about what materials we would use, or how we will design structures, it's important we engage early with our suppliers, not just to say, "I need you to do this," but it's more to say in a different collaborative manner, "We have this vision, we want to reduce our emissions, so we want to change how we design this particular structure. How can we do that with you? How can we adapt or change the recipes in the cement or the concrete for your products that you will provide us to do so? Or how can we engage in a different type of contract through our procurement that will increase the performance of the productivity, and optimization of the resources we use into that construction project?" So engaging in those to redefining contracts with those suppliers, the key suppliers, and co-innovating and sharing the risk of innovation during the early conversation is a good lever for us to pull. Because I have learned that in a lot of our projects, we as engineers are the direct relationship selection and discussion with the suppliers. So you would assume as an outsider they will be through a procurement team, it's not necessarily the case. Particularly for those small to medium-sized projects, it's the engineers who decides, engage, and select, and source the materials. So it's a big important lever.
And the final one is called closing the loop, which are strategies that look at the use stage of our projects and infrastructure, and also how do we avoid them coming to an end of life. How can we close the loop, and introduce new lives to that product, or whether if it's within the same project, or with other projects in that same portfolio of capital works in a company, or with finding synergies or symbiotic relationship with other industries that could give your materials or your product and another life. And those are strategies that are designed from the start, and those require those relationships in collaboration with others, but also requires thinking about, how can we design something today so it is very cost-effective and economically viable to then move it onto its next life?
John Arnold
I love the concept of circularity as not just, “We've got to reuse things or be smarter about design,” but really being a collaborative effort. You used the word co-innovation, and I think that that's so important because it really is, it's about changing a way of thinking about designing these projects. And so I think that that's really inspiring. So you've mentioned the word "materials" several times now, and so that makes sense from an infrastructure standpoint, so you were talking about how the supply chain, working with the supply chain is so important. Would you tell us more about circularity with the supply chain?
Rocio Rutter
Sure, absolutely. Collaboration with suppliers, it happens across different material value chains, and at different stages of the project as well. And there are different types of suppliers as well. If we are to reduce the virgin material consumption and the emissions, some of these relationships need to happen even before projects, and not only with the first tier suppliers, but also across that value chain. So some materials have by default very hard to abate emissions, like concrete, steel, they are very energy consumption-heavy type materials. So we need to find alternative ways to collaborate with these suppliers and find new mechanisms for not only replacing virgin content into the product mixes, but also looking into extending and closing the loop about some of these materials once they finish their first life. So by default, asphalt is recyclable 100% of the time, it can always be recycled, steel can always be recycled. So these type of concepts are very important to bring in with our suppliers.
So through our ongoing engagement across that value chain is that we know that many of the suppliers are already looking for ways to close their own loop in their own product portfolios. They're looking to integrate initiatives and change their business model about how they set up contracts with their clients. So we are already trying to deepen those collaborations, open the channel of discussion, be in the hub of engaging with the suppliers, understanding what they are trying to do and how we, as a key part of their value chain, are designing assets and structure using their products.
So we definitely have a role to play, and we have adopted that, we're using that agency, and we're engaging with suppliers, and learning about what can we do, how can we design things differently, giving the information back to them about what things are working, what things are not, and how can we close a loop at the end of life through new contract modeling and recommendations about changing into, for example, as-a-service models where we engage with the supplier and say, "Look, we don't want the road, we need access to a site. So can we engage into a contract that you are the sole owner of the materials and the construction of the road, that at the end of life, for example, of the time of that project, we can reuse that road and move it somewhere else to access to a new site for another project within that same program of work? How will that work? What will we need to change in the contract model, and how can we make this happen?"
John Arnold
And what are some of the tools or systems that you and your teams use to deliver more sustainable infrastructure projects?
Rocio Rutter
Well, there are many analytical frameworks, really, we tap onto for these projects, but I would like to highlight my three more favorite ones, the ones that we use more often. The first one that comes to mind is systems thinking. Systems is at the heart of creating circularity as it tries to drive a systemic approach to sustainability, likes to zoom out into, where are we operating and what's the system that we are part of? So a circularity is a systems approach, we can't deliver projects in this area without integrating systems thinking.
The second one that I like to bring out is life cycle assessment. I've been mentioning it across the previous questions, and it's thinking of a whole of life as opposed to designing just for the construction part of it, which is a very small part in the whole of life of an asset. In the whole of life of a road, of a bridge or a structure, the construction is 10% of its life. So we need to think of the entire life and apply a life cycle assessment to everything we do from an engineering perspective, but also from an infrastructure delivery perspective. And also allows us to make decisions in consideration of that whole of life aspect. So I cannot choose a material that for the construction might mitigate some of my emissions, if that is going to mean that during the maintenance of that particular, let's say, wastewater treatment plant, if I'm choosing a way of designing the pipe, on the inner lining of a pipe, it's going to mean that if the first time I need to provide some maintenance or repair, I need to replace the whole thing and throw it in the bin basically because of how it was designed and built. So that's the whole of life thinking, not just for the construction part.
And then third and final, definitely anyone that works in circularity or delivers circular projects will use this third tool at the starting point, which is the material flow analysis. It's definitely a big part of circularity because it's centered around materials. So at the start of any project, we need to know, "Well, what materials are coming in into this system, into this project, into this framework? What's coming in where, understand the stocks and flows of materials, energy, all the resources that are coming in the system, where are they going, what's happening to them, and what's coming out of it. Basically the metabolism of that particular project.
John Arnold
It's so interesting to think about the metabolism of a project, this living, breathing organism.
Rocio Rutter
Exactly. And I've witnessed firsthand the power of doing a material flow analysis because just by doing it and illustrating the outcomes, it's quite graphic representation of the outcomes, ideas about what to do with some of those byproducts or some of what previously was saw as waste in terms of where it could go, who could use it or what can we even generate a new revenue stream as a result of finding those symbiotic relationships, those synergies with others that could benefit from our byproduct that for us, it's no longer needed, but another one could be a primary source of input material.
John Arnold
That's so interesting. So with so many moving parts across the life cycle of a project, how are we measuring success?
Rocio Rutter
Yeah. Big question. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all when it comes to metrics and the weight of measure circularity, and it's certainly not a lot has yet been discovered or measured so far. I think that's definitely ... we're on a bit of a journey there. And it always starts with a vision. It always starts with the definition of the outcome that we want to achieve by the organization, by the city, or by the value chain that we're looking to transform or intervene. And then based on that outcome, how do you want to measure the success of that outcome, what does good look like and how are we going to measure it, what units are we going to use.
So that's why there is no one-size-fits-all. But what I typically will recommend when it comes to measure will be ... because of the link between circular and net-zero as a way of saying circularity is the blueprint that allows a company to deliver their net-zero projects, right? So a good way to measure the success of this implementation is, well, have I reduced my CO2 emissions? How the circular initiatives that I'm implementing, how are they helping me from my baseline of emissions and the emissions that I'm reducing as a result of the implementation of this project, you can link them that way.
And another one is circular metrics at the starting end of the process discussion. For example, percentage of upcycle material that I've used in my projects or percentage of material or byproducts from my metabolism as we discussed earlier, that I've been able to reintroduce or divert from waste, that something that will previously will have to be landfilled or sent away somewhere or track somewhere, where has it gone, and measure quantities and even dollars if I've gained some revenue stream as a result of those synergies, well, what's the income that that's bringing me into my business?
John Arnold
Understood. So in preparation for our talk today, just because I was curious because of this next question, I did a quick Google search that ... I mean it just put out a list of all of these mechanisms for funding sustainable and closed-loop infrastructure projects that's just here in the United States. So I was wondering if you would walk us through how do projects like these typically get funded?
Rocio Rutter
Another big question, you're full of those. I love it because it's definitely the important things that will get the decisions being made in terms of let's do this or not. Now also an evolving area, definitely an evolving area, particularly in Australia. I will say Europe, it's a bit more developed than us on this, but currently, initiatives identified by local and regional development agencies are receiving some funding.
Australia here for example, has decided to support the regions, transition their economies, build the resilient muscle against climate change and adaptation, and it's providing funding mechanism and programs to help them decide, okay, how do you want to do that, support their entire life cycle of that and then set up a bit of a long-term vision and do that. So as a result of that, there is a way how they can plant the seed, they can do the baseline work through using this grant funding that is coming from the government in order to start up these initiatives to set up the roadmap, to set up the business cases, this is what we want to do, this is how we want to do it, and this is what we want to start with.
But really the objective here is to engage the private sector and to engage private investment to participate in that circular economy and help get to a scalability level and help it get to the scale that we need for it to succeed. And this is what those known mechanisms called public and private partnerships are starting to form more and more here in Australia where government starts the initiative and through the success of these projects and when they're done well, then they define what market and what demand we want to attract. And they create investment-ready bonds or projects that, one, they are done at a state level, can attract private investment, which is ... it's money that private equity superannuation funds or investment funds are at the moment seeking the marketing, looking where to invest this money. And they're looking ... they call it those green bonds and the green funding. If a project has that kind of flavor, has used circular economy as a way to deliver the project, then it ticks the boxes for this green funding and they can access it.
John Arnold
Understood. What are some examples of projects where KBR has helped deliver circular infrastructure for our customers?
Rocio Rutter
Well, KBR teams have been leading circular economy initiatives for many years, particularly in the transport and water infrastructure sector. And there's definitely KBR teams in many places engaging circularity projects globally. The projects in the transport and water sector have included, mostly at this time incorporating recycled material in design and the delivery of this large infrastructure project.
One of my favorite examples, which is part of an award-winning project, is an initiative that was delivered as part of a transport infrastructure project. And it related to the replacement of virgin steel mesh reinforcement in the project with 100% recycle macro synthetic fiber, which was made locally by a less advantaged workforce. So it also tackle a few of the social procurement components to it. But the beauty of this is not only we're able to deliver sustainable in social benefits, but actually doing this, it gave benefits around reduction of CO2 for the project itself and for the company, the asset owner, reduction in the water consumption for that particular component in fuel reduction because things needed to be transported from closer locations than before with the virgin material and overall time and cost reduction in the construction delivery. So talking to the construction supplier, they were pretty happy that they were able to meet that milestone a lot faster than before.
And we learned significant amounts in terms of the process that it takes to get the approvals in the planning and standard certifications, because that sometimes can be a barrier, regulation can be a barrier in getting things approved.
John Arnold
Sure.
Rocio Rutter
It's a bit of a process. So that gave us a lot of learnings and a lot of experience in, “How do we streamline that?” So from every angle it was a great success. And addition, at KBR, we've been engaged by the South Australian government and regional communities to develop a strategic solution for the treatment and delivery of recycled water from the city of Adelaide to the ... I mean, in South Australia, everyone who lives here will know is the best wine in the Barossa Valley and Clare [Valley].
I've tried a few of those myself. So it is great to know that we are evaluating how can we use recycled water for making wine and for the irrigation of the wine valleys in Barossa and Clare Valley. So we deployed a multidisciplinary team that led the strategic analysis, that did a fantastic comprehensive business case assessment and economic analysis that identified all the solutions for how can we do this, how can these be economically viable, sustainably viable for the future of the region? So they reduce the reliance on water sources that are from rain and instead, they reuse and reintegrate or recycle water that was purified and treated so it was safe to use. And this KBR solution will facilitate that transformation and helping that entire region deliver net-zero wine and net-zero agriculture, which makes it very competitive in a global market.
John Arnold
That's outstanding. Very interesting examples. So they sound amazing. They are amazing. But as with so many things, and you mentioned this earlier in our conversation, things related to sustainability, that there is resistance to change, there's hesitance to buy in completely, if at all, from some actors in the situation. So what are some barriers to more widespread adoption of practices like these, and are more and more governments and companies adopting them? Is that what you're seeing?
Rocio Rutter
Unfortunately, there are many barriers, and the first one, it's really our collective mindset of this is not how we do things, we haven't done that before, it's a bigger risk at being the first one sometimes at trying something new, something different. So that's really the first one all of us need go through at some point.
So beyond the mindset, the second-biggest barrier in most of the cases is around regulation, as I was saying earlier, and government action to drive the right behaviors. So all the carrots and all the sticks that we need to incentivize the kind of behavior and the kind of response to which is more aligned to what we need. So that can be a bit of a barrier. But also, as I was saying earlier, I'm currently delivering a project that is facing a big barrier of entry around EPA approvals or around planning approvals, permanent approvals, because they're requiring data, but it's a pilot, and a pilot doesn't have enough data to prove it.
So we're a bit of, what's the chicken-and-the-egg kind of stuck model. So we do need to change a bit of the regulation and the processes around innovation, for that to be for pilots and trials that are trying to prove alternative technologies and alternative ways of doing things to succeed and be able to reach some level of scalability. So regulation needs to catch up on that, at different levels and with different levers. And low understanding and application of our systems approach, can also be a bit of a barrier, a bit of a problem. When we zoom in into the specific topic that we're trying to do, without looking at the system or with looking at the other stakeholders that might have influence into what we're trying to achieve or be influenced by what we're trying to do and therefore be a problem later on.
We need to avoid moving the problem elsewhere, when we look at it in isolation, as opposed to resolving it. Finally, I want to mention the role of the entities that fund infrastructure. So if we zoom in back into what we do at KBI in the sector where we operate, we need to also the entities and how we design these projects. It's not just a responsibility on financing and funding the projects, but also in the responsibility of that final product, that this project will deliver. Which from the perspective of infrastructure, it's a service to community and it's a service to the economy. So how can we do that holistically, considering environmental and social aspects as well. So not just launching new programs, but making sure that these programs can perform in all of those environmental missions, circular and social impacts. And not just saying, we need you to do that. Because everyone will go, yes, we will. But actually clearly articulating how it will be done, how it will be measured, how it will be rewarded. So getting a bit more into the detail of that.
John Arnold
It's fascinating. So what's next for circularity and infrastructure? What are trends you think we'll be seeing more of in the near future?
Rocio Rutter
Definitely the area that at the moment is surfing up as a problem with organizations or projects that are a bit more in mature in their journey of circularity. They're coming up to that same problem, which is data. Access to data and the ability to collect it and to turn that into insights. So one big part of that will be digital technology and the enablement that digital can have, across the life cycle of these projects. But we need to design it from the start. So designing for digital as an enabler of our circular project is paramount and in it cannot be an afterthought. So we need to start right from the conception of these projects and the design of it. Understanding what data do we need to collect that in most cases will be different or new to what we've normally been collecting.
Being open to do that, where is it going to come from, how we're going to collect it, where is it going to be stored? How are we going to manage this data and what insights do we want to bring in and what decision we need to support with this data, across multiple stakeholders. And there is a lot underneath that in terms of security, privacy, sharing data and all of that. But it needs to be discussed and tackled.
The second one, it's about, in terms of a trend, material banks. We hear a lot about this. We hear a lot, particularly in the building sector, that that's the aim and we need to be able to talk more in detail about how can we make this happen and where does it start. So it is linked to data because we need to have the identity of these materials and the technology that will allow the traceability across its life and not the first life, multiple lives, in order to form material banks.
And in the same concept as a bank, what's coming in, how much of it do we have it and where can it be distributed or invested on or move on to, in that consumption as well. And the third one will be, as we mature more and as more private sector organizations participate in the circular economy, we will start looking into a big change in terms of business models, business model transformation. The whole as a service model that disrupted technology. So anyone in the technology sector will be very, very familiar with the as a service infrastructure, as a service architecture, as a service software, as a service. Everything as a service.
So it's very known in that sector, in technology. But now that model is looking to disrupt the physical products. And even in infrastructure, we're looking at now, roads as a service, bridges as a service. In the building sector, they're delivering light as a service. Elevators as a service, facades as a service. Imagine all that. The entire business model that will need to change as a result of that disruption. How do we commercialize, how do we set up contracts? How do we manage performance in and everything underneath? So that will be a big trend in the future. But yeah, we're not there yet.
John Arnold
That's so fascinating. Well, before I let you go, is there anything else you'd like to add for our listeners?
Rocio Rutter
Well, first thank you for the opportunity. It's been definitely great to have a discussion about this and your questions have been spot on. Integrating circularity won't be forever the role of one person in one team. And when we can actually go mainstream, is when everyone becomes a circular expert. When everyone understands it enough that brings it into how they do things every day and the decisions that they make every day. So we design everything and we've created, so the problems of today, were the solutions of the past. So when everyone takes that onboard and uses their own agency in their own role, is when we can really scale this level of systemic change that is needed. So because as when a very smart woman said once, "To change a whole new economic model, we can't do everything and certainly, we cannot do it alone." So it's important we all take our part. So thank you for this opportunity.
John Arnold
Well thank you for sharing that wisdom with us and thank you for sharing about this very important concept. And I know the listeners like me will probably look forward to hearing more about these initiatives, that are coming down the pike soon. So thank you very much for being with us today.
Rocio Rutter
No, thank you John. I appreciate the opportunity. It was great talking to you.
TRANSITION
John Arnold
Circular infrastructure. Just another way KBR is turning ESG commitments into action and opportunity. We want to thank Rocio Rutter for her time and for discussing this very interesting and important subject with us. I know I'm looking forward to hearing more about how circularity is deployed across KBR projects that are coming down the pike, and we'll be sure to share that info with you as it comes. I'd also like to thank our amazing producer, Emma, for the work she does in getting this podcast out there for our In Orbit community. So thank you, Emma.
If you're listening and you'd like to learn more about KBR's infrastructure solutions business and the amazing work they do, you can go to our website kbr.com and use that handy search tool.
And if you're interested in learning more about KBR's ESG progress in general and how we're using our sustainable solutions to help customers accomplish their ESG and business goals, I encourage you to check out our new sustainability and corporate responsibility report, which is due out very soon. That will also be available on kbr.com. Finally, if you like what you heard today or if you have an idea for a future episode, let us hear from you at inorbit@kbr.com.
That is all from me. I hope you enjoy the episode and thank you for being with us and staying in our orbit. Take care.